The need for God

Once again I’ve found myself inspired by BeepBeepit’sme’s most bodacious blog and find I just can’t help myself. Sorry Beep, if you feel plagiarised.

There has been much debate over the centuries about God and the need for him/her/it. It seems to me however, that religion(s) should have a definite starting and end point.

There was a time when man worshipped the earth or Gaia. Then there was a time when man worshipped the sun, moon and stars. Over the millennia however, people learn about the world around them and religions must either change to incorporate new knowledge or risk becoming obsolete.

For ancient man, just as it is today, sun, earth and water were all required for his continued sustenance and survival. Is it any wonder then that he would hold these things in reverence? I don’t think it is, simply because without any one of them, he would die. And if he doesn’t understand how it is these things conspire together to produce the staples required for sustenance, is it any wonder that he views the process with awe and gives thanks to what he sees as “life givers”?

Then there’s the places where nothing grows, where man and beast simply cannot survive. A lack of water, sunlight, infertile or contaminated soil is probably the reason, but if he doesn’t understand the process, how is he to know? This must simply be a place where “something else” manages to keep the life giving forces of sun, earth and water from producing their bounty, seemingly for no other reason than to make it impossible for man and the beasts he hunts. Is it any wonder then that these places are to be avoided because “bad” things happen and people and animals alike die there?

If that was the case, and I think it’s probably close enough, then it’s hardly surprising that those ancient men, tasked with leadership within their communities, tried to devise methods to help keep those “bad” things at bay and encourage the “good” things, in the hope of bountiful harvests and good hunting.

So armed with indifference at his own ignorance, an over inflated view of his own importance and awe at the world around him, man seeks out for himself a force of such power that it can not only regulate the seasons and make the sun shine, but can create the earth it nourishes, the sky from which it shines and everything else that man sees around him, inevitably including man himself. In those places where nothing can survive we find the domain of the arch nemesis of the benign power of life, which is death. And so begins the ancient and endless struggle between good and evil that has ensued throughout the ages.

Trouble is that man is also a very curious beast. For many, the fact that there is no more evidence to suggest the existence of a supernatural force than there is to suggest the non-existence of a supernatural force, is more than enough to suggest that perhaps the gods are not responsible after all. These are the people who experiment with nature, take note of what they observe and think about what conclusions can be drawn. Then they tend to suffer horribly at the hands of their “church” for daring to think. But so it is that eventually, the gods of the sun, earth, water, thunder and lightening, etc. become obsolete. We now understand enough of the processes of nature to know that there’s no point praying to the sun for a bountiful harvest. If conditions are right the harvest will be good if not, bad. It’s really quite simple.

And so we reach the end point, where the mystification of natural forces is no longer required. The obsolescence of these deities has caused them to fade into obscurity and their rituals and trappings with them, but only to a point. I say that because there are many dates in the christian calendar that have their origins in ancient pagan festivals. December 25^th for instance, is the winter solstice and evidence would suggest that it has been celebrated since times more ancient than Abraham or Moses.

We now however, understand something of the forces that created our universe. We also understand much about biological evolution and know how it is we came to be here. We also know that certain foods do not keep well or need to be well cooked. In all of this, there is no reason to suggest that some all powerful being created the universe out of nothing, or that some benign “god of life” moulded a man out of clay and breathed life into him, or that some god or other deigned that some edible and quite delicious foods are “unclean” and shouldn’t be eaten.

So is there still a “need for god” do you think? It seems that most of the mundane questions that god answers have been explained. Sure, the church had a few issues with this in the early days, but for the most part it has come to accept that you can’t just torture and kill people because they don’t agree with you.

But I’ve been told recently that our current christian god exists outside of time and space, multiple universes have even been contemplated. But apparently, belief in today’s christian god is quite different to the simple ascribing of a god aspect to something that is not yet understood. I find I cannot agree with that. For anything to exist outside of time and space, it would need to violate the laws of physics as we know them. That means that a god that exists outside of time and space is a notion we cannot possibly understand. So how is ascribing god aspects to that which we don’t understand any different in this instance than it was to the Earth, sun, rivers, thunder, lightening, planets, etc? In short, it isn’t.

And if we look back at the history of the supernatural, christian god we can see quite plainly that over time, “He” has shifted from being a ready explanation for everything, from conception to the creation of the universe, to something that can’t possibly be understood. There was a time when he was directly responsible for everything, now he’s only responsible for the forces that shape everything. It seems to me that in incorporating new knowledge, in the vain attempt that it doesn’t become obsolete, main stream christian religion has pushed god right out of this universe and into the next. It almost seems as if the end point has been reached here as well, doesn’t it?

9:20 AM - 14/3/2007 - post comment

god

"Successful religions", and by that I mean those that survive, do so by shifting the goal posts. By evolving their concept of what god is. Each time there is an expansion of human knowledge, this god fills the cracks of that which is NOT known.

It manages to fill the cracks of the unknown basically because it is a "shape shifting concept" - it can be anything that the human mind can contemplate it to be.

Human beings once considered the universe to be the earth, with a few planets, a moon, and the sun revolving around it. Under these circumstances god could sit on his throne iin what we now know to be a very small universe and we still couldn't see him. But it was expected that he was just above up somewhere in the clouds, looking down on us and judging our behaviour.

With the expansion of human knowledge concerning the universe, god has had to shift his invisible throne to some inconceivable place outside time and space, os that the prying eyes of human telescopes, satillites and space shuttles can't perve on his exact location.

Once human beings became aware of the mind-boggling scope of the universe, it gave god believers more places in which to hide their god.

So god became omnipresent (everywhere all at once) and yet existing outside time and space. How god believers do not see this as a contradiction, I don't know..

Oh, and the BTW, I don't mind being mentioned at all. Feel free to use whatever info you think is pertinent.

beepbeepitsme - 11:55 AM - 14/3/2007

Re: God

I find it interesting that although god gets pushed further away as we come to understand our surroundings, most will argue that their "god" is different and isn't just an explanation for the unknown, however vague. When asked to explain though, they attempt to explain the unknown thereby re-inforcing the fact that that's exactly what "He" is.

The only thing I can see that's holding this one together is the promise of eternal life and that's dodgey at best...

plonka - 12:34 PM - 14/3/2007

aries67@work

Please excuse my less eloquent and probably not so thought out thoughts in such philosophical company...

FYI - given the right pitch you could sell snow to this eskimo, so I sway from religion to science and back again depending on the evidence presented to me. :oP So I am just thinking out loud here...

There is still some supernatural / godlike / miracle / unexplainable stuff that goes on in our world. If the unexplainable is previously put down to "god", is the current unexplainable stuff still just a lack of scientific knowledge? How much do you think we know about our immediate world? I thought we had just about everything covered scientifically, not much more to find? So how do you explain the current unexplainable stuff Plonka? (see how eloquent I am!)

And evolution? I find it hard to believe that man with his marvellous complex inner workings was made from dirt. I see adaption at work and tend to believe more in evolution. But I wonder if evolution is the same thing as adaptation? Or is evolution just adaptation in bigger leaps over less time? I wonder about evolution because creationists ask why we see no evidence of evolution now. If man evolved from ape where is the inbetween stage now? Or have we finished evolving? If so, what makes a life form stop evolving? OR Was man created in his basic form (neanderthalic) very similar to the ape but with more intelligence, with the opportunity over time to adapt? We all know it's hard to get the blueprint perfect the first time around. So could we have been created to adapt over time to what we are now, thereby giving proof to evolution and creation?

As I said just thinking out loud ...

reptiletrader - 1:51 PM - 14/3/2007

Brilliant!

Fantastic comment Aries. Eloquent too...:)

How do I explain the current unexplainable stuff? Easy, I don't. But I don't put it down to god either.

Over the millenia, we have learned, or should have learned I think, that there is an explanation for everything, if we only look deep enough, long enough and hard enough. Just as it was for ancient man in my example, I have neither the words nor the knowledge to explain some things. But unlike ancient man above, I also have hindsight that tells me there is more than likely to be a perfectly valid and logical explanation, an explanation that better minds than mine are currently searching for. So in the mean time, instead of saying "god did it" I'll swollow my pride and say "I don't know."

Evolution is tricky. Who's to say if we are fully evolved? We certainly seem to have come to a point where we are well adapted to our natural environment. Will our meddling make a difference? Time will tell. Then there's fast evolution due to sudden mutation in the event of cataclysms or other environmental upheaval vs. slow mutation and adaptation over imense periods of time. A tricky question but good arguments exist for both, so perhaps it's a mixture of the two.

"We all know it's hard to get the blueprint perfect the first time around."

I have to admit Aries, this is one of my favorites.The christian view is that god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That being the case, then getting it right the first time really should be a doddle for him.

plonka - 3:57 PM - 14/3/2007

Imperfect

Oh bugger, I thought you might have had some answers for me!

I agree, you can't use ignorance as an excuse to create a benevolent being. Being scared of the dark is just being scared of the unknown. The unknown doesn't have to "be" something or someone. There is likely to be an explanation, a hole in our knowledge. It looks likely that the current unexplainable could be the fun stuff! I'm a bit of a sci-fi fan and am open to anything!

As to god being perfect, making the right decision every time, making his creations perfect the first time around, it depends on who you talk to about "him". I've had many long talks with Witnesses and their explanation of stories in the bible show that the free will of his people sucked so he drowned them all. Jesus died for mankind on the cross for our sins (our imperfections). We built towers to reach heaven and be with him against his rules, so "he" destroyed cities. There are many stories showing "him" to be imperfect.

As a side thought, it amazes me how complex the human system is. When you consider that each cell of the fertilised egg has it's little program to follow and grow into some little machine that works inside the big machine to make the whole machine that is wo/man. If just one little thing goes wrong a child could be born with an outie instead of an inney, or with the second toe longer than the big toe. If a couple of other little things go wrong the child can be born blind or with cerebal palsy or down's. I doubt anyone has ever been born perfect (except Adam and Eve if we want to go down that road). But as far as blueprints go, I'm damned impressed!

aries67 - 8:29 PM - 14/3/2007

No doubt

That it's a damn fine "blueprint" indeed. But, and there's always one of those where this subject is concerned, omniscience means "all knowing". If god is omniscient, then he knew before he started what "mistakes" he was going to make, which means they aren't mistakes.

Ask a witness if god is omniscient and they'll say yes. Well, the ones out my way do but once they've been asked to define what that means exactly, they don't tend to come back, mores the pity...:)

plonka - 1:03 AM - 15/3/2007

dikkii

You know, Ted, that bit you wrote about mainstream Christianity pushing God out of this Universe and into somewhere else is, I think, the reason why the mainstream churches have declining attendances.

This view, if it is the official view and I think it is, appears to move away from theist thought and towards deist thought.

And, as we know, deists don't normally see any need for prayer, church services etc.

A sensational post. Put this one in your Greatest Hits.

dikkii - 8:56 AM - 15/3/2007

Attendances

I think it's definitely a large part of it too Dikkii. I also like to think that maybe we're slowly coming to realise that ascribing a supernatural aspect that what we can't explain have never really worked out in the end, but perhaps I'm stretching it.

I seem to be hearing this more and more from all branches of christianity that I've occasion to converse with, so I'm of the opinion that it probably is the "official" view.

Thanks for your kind words too. They're muchly appreciated...:)

plonka - 7:56 PM - 15/3/2007

An only vaguely educated rant on relegion from a teenage point of view.

I don't think it really matters to some people very much if their religion becomes impossible to understand and irrelevant to modern times. In my short and rather sheltered life I have found that people who strongly believe in God do so because they can't except other things. They don't want to believe that their life is entirely in there own hands and that there isn't any divine power protecting them. They want something to blame when things go wrong and something to give them hope when there is nothing left. Religion gives people a reason to live correctly and sometimes a purpose in life. It seems to me that religion used to be just about explaining life and everything in it. Now to fully believe in religion people have to ignore the true facts and explanations of life and the world. Which as you said would seem to mark then end of this age of religion. People won't give up on God for along time yet though. Alot of people still want to put their responsibilities on someone elses shoulders, no matter how obscure that person becomes. Global warming is a great example of this. People seem to struggle with the idea that the world is acctually in trouble because of us and we have to fix it. Even if they don't necessarily think that God is looking after them it comes to the same thing. They some how believe that humans are too insignificant to have thet sort of impact and they are scarred of the fact that we are. they think that if the problem is ignored it will go away. That's my little rant. Sorry to go on and on. if anyone feels my opinion is not quite right or incorrect please fell free to say so :)

goo0002 - 12:13 PM - 17/3/2007

Vaguely educated teenager? HA!

Very well said Goo...:)

You're right too. I take back what I said earlier about the promise of eternal life being the only thing keeping it alive. People do like to have some one/thing to blame other than themselves and as long as god can fill that void, then he'll be with us regardless of how obsolete he becomes...

plonka - 4:44 PM - 17/3/2007

blog hole went away...

Thanks for replying to my comment. It's really nice to be acknowledged, es[ecially on an adults blog.
I notice you still have 'Candy's blog hole' listed. I'm sorry to report that it is no more. There is however a new blog called 'Jimmy the blog' that you could add instead.

goo0002 - 6:45 PM - 21/3/2007

Fixed

No worries Candy. All opinions get a response here and yours counts too...:)

Besides, it was well put and well thought out as well.

Link's all fixed...:)

plonka - 10:02 PM - 21/3/2007

Reply to Plonka

Over the millenia [sic], we have learned, or should have learned I think, that there is an explanation for everything, if we only look deep enough, long enough and hard enough.”

Plonka, I understand your logical conclusion about the existence of God. However, why would you not afford the same rationale to seeking God that you claim to for other unknowns? If the answers lie deep within somewhere, and if one looks deeply enough, with sufficient effort and patience, and if the seeker is diligent will find, then why not the unknown God?

Goader - 5:37 AM - 22/3/2007

In Response to Goo's Comment

This is to the "teenager" that tried to explain man's reasons for God.
I'm troubled that there are people that really believe that Christians want to "blame God" when things are not going well and then turn around and "praise God" when things are going well.
The Bible teaches the opposite. We are to count it all joy when we are suffering through a trial.
It's God's way of growing us up. I have been through many trials in my life and more times than not, I have come out the other side of a trial more mature; more equipped to handle that situation should it arise in my life again.
It is not God's fault when we suffer. He does not authorize pain for one's life. He uses "bad things" to help us grow, yes, but it is the sin of mankind that lead us into trials.
Example:
My husband and I have a house for sale and we are living in another home. We have 2 mortgage payments (yikes!). To help offset a mortgage payment, we got a renter in the empty house. She turned out to be a nightmare. She wouldn't pay us. We had to hire a lawyer to evict her.
Was this God's fault? Is he to blame?
No.
This woman, our tenant, is responsible for her own actions. We just suffered the consequences and now we have learned some things from this situation. I pity the woman. She is not sorry for she did to us. Our lives were a financial nightmare for 3 months and she's not sorry.
She didn't learn anything. That's pathetic and sad. I don't hate her--I feel sorry for her. Her consequences will follow her long after she is out of my life (on the 29th! yeah!)
~Sadie

Anonymous - 6:07 AM - 22/3/2007

Unknown god...

Perhaps we will Goader, who's to say? The difference is in how we look at it. Where you see "the unknown God", I see a natural process waiting to be explained. So my conclusion is based purely on scientific evidence and the logical conclusions that can be drawn from said evidence.

Where I have a problem is that using god as an explanation and believing in it tends to lead to complacency or worse, as it did in the early days when even something as mundane as the humble vacuum was not allowed to exist because if it did, the church would be wrong and god would be proven NOT to be everywhere because nothing can exist in a vacuum.

So to apply the same rationale, i.e. an adherence to the scientific principle, would be to deny god until evidence is found, in my opinion. I see no tangible evidence of god and no-one has ever managed a mathmatical model of god. Until one or the other happens, there's actually nothing behind "the god theory" to suggest that it's valid.

plonka - 8:47 AM - 22/3/2007

Trials

Thanks for dropping by Sadie...:)

If you're saying that your sitiuation is a trial sent by god then personally I think I would blame god. I would certainly feel very hard done by (rightly so too, by the sound of things. Hope things have picked up for you, that sounds like a nightmare!)

I think what Goo is saying is that as a christian, you have that option. You can say "God has let this happen for a reason." That helps you find solace, but it also absolves everyone of responsibility. There is a higher reason and it's not really her fault.

plonka - 9:04 AM - 22/3/2007

responsibility for sin

ted, if you read my comment, I said...
"It is not God's fault when we suffer. He does not authorize pain for one's life. He uses "bad things" to help us grow, yes, but it is the sin of mankind that lead us into trials."

Now, if you isolate the sin in the trial and can trace it back to one's actions, then the trial you're suffering through was indirectly or directly brought about by you or those around you.
Nobody sins in a box. Your sin and the sin of those around us influence our lives by the consequences that are the result of said sins.
How can we blame God if man is given the freedom to choose?
How can we be a free people if we are forced to behave in a certain way?
How could we truely LOVE God if we don't know what it is to HATE?
This is why God created the potential for sin but he didn't force sin into our lives. Humankind chose it. It is what Christians call "The Fall". The fall from God's grace,

Anonymous - 11:43 PM - 22/3/2007

oops

that was me, Sadie (as if you didn't know)

Anonymous - 11:43 PM - 22/3/2007

I guessed....:)

Blognow's comments area isn't the best unfortunately Sadie. You can change "Anonymous" to be your name though. Some even change it the URL of their blog.

Now to some questions and I did read it BTW...

"How can we blame God if man is given the freedom to choose?"

Because god made a point of giving man that gift. If he hadn't we'd live in blissful ignorance and all praise his name as he intended us to.

"How can we be a free people if we are forced to behave in a certain way?"

But you ARE forced to behave a certain way if you take the bible as your guide. There are rules and precepts that you MUST follow in order to be a Christian.

"How could we truly LOVE God if we don't know what it is to HATE?"

What does Jesus say to hate? Only evil. How do we define what constitutes evil? Me denying the holy spirit and speaking against it is an unforgivable sin (Mat; 12:31-32), but how is that evil? I'm in no danger of going to jail any time soon.

I do understand these things Sadie which is why I question them so vigorously. I was a Christian for a very long time, ending up in a Pentecostal church before I had finally had enough. I have to admit, you do look at things a little differently than most Christians I've debated with over years.

I think I need to apologise again though, for catching you in another stereo-type where you don't belong. Most Christians I know would not just say, like you did, that they feel sorry for her, they would also say it isn't her fault she's like she is. Once again, you've caught me out by not being typical. You really must stop that, you're making me look silly...:)

plonka - 1:52 AM - 23/3/2007

Apology Accepted!

>>Blognow's comments area isn't the best unfortunately Sadie. You can change "Anonymous" to be your name though. Some even change it the URL of their blog.<<

I'll try that next time.
:)??>>Because god made a point of giving man that gift. If he hadn't we'd live in blissful ignorance and all praise his name as he intended us to. <<

But that's the problem. It can't really be true worship and love and a full understanding of grace and mercy if we don't fully know what we are worshipping and praising him for. It's not until we grasp the full scope of the consequences of sin that we can understand the saving grace of redemption.??>>But you ARE forced to behave a certain way if you take the bible as your guide. There are rules and precepts that you MUST follow in order to be a Christian. <<

No, no. I want to to do the things God has asked of me because I know that they are good for me. I just don't always do them because I'm weak.??>>What does Jesus say to hate? Only evil. How do we define what constitutes evil? Me denying the holy spirit and speaking against it is an unforgivable sin (Mat; 12:31-32), but how is that evil? I'm in no danger of going to jail any time soon. <<

It's God that tells you what is evil. He is the standard. The world tells you all kinds of lies. It sells you ideas of what will bring about happiness but it's cheap. Just because you won't go to jail for speaking out against God doesn't mean there are not long term consequences to your actions. ??>>I do understand these things Sadie which is why I question them so vigorously. I was a Christian for a very long time, ending up in a Pentecostal church before I had finally had enough. I have to admit, you do look at things a little differently than most Christians I've debated with over years. <<

Try to think past what has been drilled into your brain those years you were a believer. Perhaps you left the church because it wasn't the true message? Maybe you were led into false teachings or doctrines? Some of the things we have discussed that sound so different or unique to you is really Christianity 101 where I come from.??>>I think I need to apologise again though, for catching you in another stereo-type where you don't belong. Most Christians I know would not just say, like you did, that they feel sorry for her, they would also say it isn't her fault she's like she is. Once again, you've caught me out by not being typical. You really must stop that, you're making me look silly...:)<<

Apology accepted of course. :) My greater mission in blogging (besides the fact that it's fun) is trying to lay to rest some common stereotypes. I like to show people how we really do things and some of the basic principles we stand on. It's really not that wacky.
:)

Anonymous - 4:08 AM - 23/3/2007

Comments

We can't use tags either, no bold, italics, underlines or live links. We are however, agitating to have that remedied. Time will tell I guess...

"But that's the problem. It can't really be true worship and love and a full understanding of grace and mercy if we don't fully know what we are worshipping and praising him for."

Well let's take a look at that. God put man in the garden, gave him free will. He then lied and said they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge. When Eve exercised her free will and made the decision to eat the fruit (no, she wasn't deceived, she was told nothing but the truth by the snake and was then able to make an informed decision and she decided she wanted knowledge), both her and Adam were severely punished. This does not seem to me to be the actions of a god who was happy to see the free will he had bestowed exercised. This seems more like the actions of a god who wanted compliant, ignorant worshippers. Let's face it, if Eve hadn't eaten the fruit, there'd be no questioning of god because we'd have no basis of knowledge on which to form the questions. We'd be ignorant, doting worshippers doing nothing more and nothing less than god's bidding, unquestioningly.

" just don't always do them because I'm weak."

Once again I think that is a matter of opinion. Could it be that you simply don't want to do those things and have exercised the free will that god gave you and made a decision that you are happy with?

"It's God that tells you what is evil."

And how does he do this? Is it a moral standpoint that you know is right in your heart, or is it a direct instruction written in the bible? One is YOUR choice, not god's and the other is a precept directly FROM god.

"Try to think past what has been drilled into your brain those years you were a believer."

What was "drilled" into my brain while I was growing up as a christian was a good education that taught me to question and to use my critical mind. When I finally came to the realisation that the only answer I could get to my questions was god and prayer, which didn't provide any real answers at all, I turned away.

plonka - 2:22 PM - 23/3/2007

Truth will set you free :)

"Well let's take a look at that. God put man in the garden, gave him free will. He then lied and said they would die if they ate from the tree of knowledge."

They did die. Just not right then and there. They died a spiritual death--losing fellowship with God and they died years later and so has everyone after them. Does God saying "You will die" have to mean "Right now" or do *you* require it to mean "right now"?


" When Eve exercised her free will and made the decision to eat the fruit (no, she wasn't deceived, she was told nothing but the truth by the snake"

He said they would be like God. That's not the truth.

"and was then able to make an informed decision and she decided she wanted knowledge), both her and Adam were severely punished."

Yes. They did what God asked them NOT to do. He gave one command and they couldn't follow it.




" This does not seem to me to be the actions of a god who was happy to see the free will he had bestowed exercised. This seems more like the actions of a god who wanted compliant, ignorant worshippers"

It seems to me that God's creation needed a reason to worship him. They were not content to worship and obey God simply because he asked them to. It seemed like God knew it wouldn't be true love and worship if he forced it on us.

" Let's face it, if Eve hadn't eaten the fruit, there'd be no questioning of god because we'd have no basis of knowledge on which to form the questions. We'd be ignorant, doting worshippers doing nothing more and nothing less than god's bidding, unquestioningly. "

Exactly. You proved my point for me. God is all knowing and all powerful and all loving and all good--etc. He knew this was the way to get true worshippers (I love and worship him with all my heart--so case in point). I'm not angry at the way we got to this point because God is a better creator and designer than I am. If you or I were in charge of making up the salvation plan--we would screw it up. This is God's perfect plan and it's working perfectly. He has true worshippers.???"Once again I think that is a matter of opinion. Could it be that you simply don't want to do those things and have exercised the free will that god gave you and made a decision that you are happy with? "

No. I do the things I don't want to do because I serve my own needs before I serve God or serve the needs of others. I am selfish. I have to really make myself do the things that are good. It's really only possible that I do good because of the Holy Spirit. Left to my own judgment--i would always choose to serve myself.???"And how does he do this? Is it a moral standpoint that you know is right in your heart, or is it a direct instruction written in the bible? One is YOUR choice, not god's and the other is a precept directly FROM god. "

Your conscience--the Holy Spirit--reading the word--knowing God. Take your pick.??"What was "drilled" into my brain while I was growing up as a christian was a good education that taught me to question and to use my critical mind. When I finally came to the realisation that the only answer I could get to my questions was god and prayer, which didn't provide any real answers at all, I turned away."

That's sad. I can have both. A critical mind--science--and God.

~Sadie

Anonymous - 2:21 AM - 24/3/2007

God?

\"For anything to exist outside of time and space, it would need to violate the laws of physics as we know them.\"
<br>
<br>How does it break them? What about the supposed \"graviton\", time itself isn\'t even constant.
<br>
<br>To the Christian, God created physics, why must he conform to his creation (assuming he does break the laws of physics). Again we come back to the same fact, a god who is limited by ANYTHING is not god, but simply another, more powerful, being.
<br>
<br>Just as a final idea, \"the laws of physics as we know them\" are constantly changing.

shadowsoflove.blogspot.com - 3:12 AM - 24/3/2007

Both ways?

"They did die. Just not right then and there."

So god told them they would die. Remember, they hadn't eaten the fruit at that stage and thought that death meant just exactly that.

"He said they would be like God. That's not the truth."

What he said was (from my NIV):

Gen 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

You seem to have ignored the qualifying statement on the end, just like you did with my Hitler youth "crack". Only god knew about "good and evil" at that stage, so it was indeed, nothing but the plain and simple truth.

"Yes. They did what God asked them NOT to do. He gave one command and they couldn't follow it."

God expects his commandments to be followed, the bible makes that very clear. So, by giving the commandment and telling them they would die if they ate it, god clearly shows that he didn't want them to eat it which also shows, quite plainly in fact, that god didn't want them knowing good and evil and it's that knowledge alone that allows us to make that decision.

"It seems to me that God's creation needed a reason to worship him."

You can't have it both ways. Either she was deceived or needed a reason and found one, which is it?

"They were not content to worship and obey God simply because he asked them to."

Without knowledge, how would they know to be discontent? The bible also makes it clear that they were happy with this arrangement, right up until they ate the fruit. It's no good applying the forbidden knowledge BEFORE they had it.

"Exactly. You proved my point for me."

Quite the contrary. What the BIBLE shows, quite clearly, is that Adam and Eve made a boo-boo and that god got very upset because of it. You've even said he killed them for it, just not then and there. It also shows that ignorant unquestioning worshippers seems to have been the initial plan until the serpent stuffed it up for everyone.

"That's sad. I can have both. A critical mind--science--and God."

I don't see it as sad simply because in all my time as a christian (and there's been a bit of it), I've actually seen any direct evidence of god working in mine or any of the people around me (ie, those I regularly fellowshipped with) lives. I'm much healthier and happier now that I have given up my quest for god.

But it is I that has it both ways Sadie, critical mind and science. You've tacked a third one on the end there for some reason, but it's really not required.

plonka - 5:16 PM - 24/3/2007

Re: God?

Thanks for dropping by Mercy, appreciate it.

"How does it break them?"

I did say "as we know them", which you have qualified for me further down. Newton's "theory of nature" lays out the initial predictions, then there's both the general and special theories of relativity and finally quantum mechanics.

"What about the supposed "graviton", time itself isn't even constant."

You said it, "supposed". Like god, I'll believe that when it's proven too...:)

"God created physics, why must he conform to his creation"

But to me, that just abstracts him further and makes him even more un-knowable.

"Just as a final idea, "the laws of physics as we know them" are constantly changing."

Precisely so. Who knows, one day we may even find god.

plonka - 6:16 PM - 24/3/2007

Remember me?

"So god told them they would die. Remember, they hadn't eaten the fruit at that stage and thought that death meant just exactly that. "

I'm not even sure they knew what death was. Where do you see God explaining the concept of death to either Adam or Eve????"Gen 3:5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." ??You seem to have ignored the qualifying statement on the end, just like you did with my Hitler youth "crack". Only god knew about "good and evil" at that stage, so it was indeed, nothing but the plain and simple truth. "

No it was not the truth. Eating of the tree of knowledge was not going to make Adam and Eve "like God" in an way shape or form. He didn't tempt them by reminding them of God's promise--which was you will die if you eat of the tree--he tempted them by saying a lie--God just doesn't want you to eat of it because then you'll be like him--knowing good and evil. At this point, Adam and Eve had no concept of good because they didn't understand evil. ??"God expects his commandments to be followed, the bible makes that very clear. So, by giving the commandment and telling them they would die if they ate it, god clearly shows that he didn't want them to eat it which also shows, quite plainly in fact, that god didn't want them knowing good and evil and it's that knowledge alone that allows us to make that decision. "

He gives us the commands that are good for us. He never gives commands that are bad for us. He knows what is best for us. He knew that there had to be the potential for evil in order for there to be freedom. Otherwise, why would he have created the tree? It seems if God wanted blind, robotic worship--the tree would be eliminated from the garden.??"You can't have it both ways. Either she was deceived or needed a reason and found one, which is it? "

She was lied to and she sinned against God and God knew this was going to be the outcome and he designed a plan for redemption that would ultimately glorify himself in the most effective way.??"Quite the contrary. What the BIBLE shows, quite clearly, is that Adam and Eve made a boo-boo and that god got very upset because of it. You've even said he killed them for it, just not then and there. It also shows that ignorant unquestioning worshippers seems to have been the initial plan until the serpent stuffed it up for everyone. "

If ignorant, unquestioning worship was going to be "the plan" then the snake is more powerful than God because he was able to throw a giant monkey wrench into "the plan" or else--God designed the whole thing in exactly the way he wanted it.??"I don't see it as sad simply because in all my time as a christian (and there's been a bit of it), I've actually seen any direct evidence of god working in mine or any of the people around me (ie, those I regularly fellowshipped with) lives. I'm much healthier and happier now that I have given up my quest for god. "

That's your experience and frankly, I'm not buying it. Obviously fellowshipping with a group of Christians is going to eventually provide you with answered prayer and testimony as to how God "worked" in their lives--if it didn't, ever, then there wouldn't be Christians.??Are you saying Christians don't need science?

~Sadie

Anonymous - 3:50 AM - 27/3/2007

Of course

Of course I do Sadie. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten you. 12 night shifts mean I haven't had time to check my own blog, let alone anyone else's.

"I'm not even sure they knew what death was."

Now that really doesn't make sense. If it's meaningless, why say it? God can't be that stupid!

"No it was not the truth. Eating of the tree of knowledge was not going to make Adam and Eve "like God" in an way shape or form."

I'm afraid that it did. They came to know, just as god already did, "good and evil". You can mince words and meanings all you want, but the vernacular used really is quite simple.

"which was you will die if you eat of the tree"

So now it's not a meaningless statement, but a promise. You'll excuse my incredulity.

"he tempted them by saying a lie--God just doesn't want you to eat of it because then you'll be like him--knowing good and evil."

Did he really? Looks to me like he asked a question and a conversation ensued, after which Eve made an informed decision.

"He gives us the commands that are good for us. He never gives commands that are bad for us. He knows what is best for us."

And if Genesis is the example, he does it by telling lies and using words we don't know the meaning of.

"He knew that there had to be the potential for evil in order for there to be freedom. Otherwise, why would he have created the tree? It seems if God wanted blind, robotic worship--the tree would be eliminated from the garden."

"If ignorant, unquestioning worship was going to be "the plan" then the snake is more powerful than God because he was able to throw a giant monkey wrench into "the plan" or else--God designed the whole thing in exactly the way he wanted it."

But he still felt the need to play games and pretend he didn't? I find that difficult to believe.

"That's your experience and frankly, I'm not buying it. Obviously fellowshipping with a group of Christians is going to eventually provide you with answered prayer and testimony as to how God "worked" in their lives--if it didn't, ever, then there wouldn't be Christians."

It didn't, I'm not. I didn't say that they didn't believe that god "worked" in their lives. Take for instance one chap, who praised and thinked god for finding him a job. He'd been out of work for only 1 month and had had all of three interviews. He put the whole thing down to god, I put it down to his 10 years experience, exemplary record and glowing references. In every case I've witnessed, where god has been concerned, there's always been a mundane reason.

"Are you saying Christians don't need science? "

Quite the opposite Sadie. You said you could have both "A critical mind--science--and God". That's three, but only the first two are needed...

plonka - 11:24 PM - 27/3/2007

Hello Sleepy!

"Of course I do Sadie. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten you. 12 night shifts mean I haven't had time to check my own blog, let alone anyone else's. "

Yikes. You must be sleepy. *smile*??"Now that really doesn't make sense. If it's meaningless, why say it? God can't be that stupid! "

Well, if God designed them to be everlasting and to never grow old and to never die--how would they know what death was? It's an innocent question. The animals didn't even die--death didn't come until the fall. In fact, the animals and the people (Adam and Eve) ate plants--so the animals didn't even kill each other.??"I'm afraid that it did. They came to know, just as god already did, "good and evil". You can mince words and meanings all you want, but the vernacular used really is quite simple. "

God's knowledge of good and evil is not our understanding of good and evil. We don't equal God or match his knowledge of things. The snake told a lie.??"So now it's not a meaningless statement, but a promise. You'll excuse my incredulity. "

My kids don't know exactly why I make the rules that I do. They just know to obey me because it's good for them.??"But he still felt the need to play games and pretend he didn't? I find that difficult to believe. "

It's just that you have this distorted idea of who God is in your life. Surely I would question God to the degree that you do if I stopped having faith in him. I have prejudices that you just can't understand. I know that all things work for good for those that love God and you don't.??Your example of the man who thanked God for getting him the job is perfect. He is thanking God because this man is not putting his faith in himself and his own merits--he is giving credit to God for *everything* that includes his abilities, work ethic, whatever else--he gives the glory to God.
Apart from God, everything I do is on my own efforts--including getting to heaven on my own merits. How does one get to heaven on their own works? Is anyone "holy" enough?

Anonymous - 5:18 AM - 28/3/2007

The need for God

Ted, you conclude with "It almost seems as if the end point has been reached here as well, doesn’t it?

It really depends on the individual as to whether that is so, doesn't it. To some, there will always be a need for God, because that belief fulfills the needs you mention regarding an explanation for creation, a comfort in times of distress, and a belief in eternal life. But for others who think a little deeper, the end point has been reached. God is well and truly deader than the proverbial doornail.

We are the end result of millions of years of evolution on this earth. There is nothing to say that we are the superior life form in the universe, or that we are capable of understanding the universe. So, we can choose to explain the universe in human terms by believing in a super human we call "God", or we can choose to believe that we have not evolved far enough to be capable of comprehending the universe. One day humans may be capable. It may well be that other forms of life in the universe are capable now. But because we do not yet fully understand the universe, that is no reason to say that we can just throw all the unknowns into a basket, call it "God", and that explains all. It just doesn't.

As for the preoccupation with sin that some seem to have, I can only say that the notion that God would go to the trouble of creating a universe just for humans to run around sinning in, beggars belief. A stray asteroid may very well annihilate this planet one day, and the universe will carry on its merry way without us, sin or no sin, God or no God.

It just seems to me that this life is far better spent contemplating the wonder of the universe, rather than wasting our time on Earth worrying about sin, whatever that is. The other creatures from which we are descended on this planet don't seem to have a problem with sin. Neither do I.



Edited by snowy on 29/3/2007 at 1:28 AM

snowy - 9:24 PM - 28/3/2007

Mostly awake

I must admit Sadie, they are beginning to get to me. I just finished the last however, so now it's 2 days to turn around then 12 hour day shifts on the weekend. Fun and games, but then I get a week off to recover...:)

"Well, if God designed them to be everlasting and to never grow old and to never die--how would they know what death was? It's an innocent question. The animals didn't even die--death didn't come until the fall. In fact, the animals and the people (Adam and Eve) ate plants--so the animals didn't even kill each other."

Genesis 1:24 "And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so." (NIV)

and again: "And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so." (King James)

Please note the word livestock/cattle. Livestock means just exactly that, live stock or food, beasts of burden, etc. Cattle means "livestock". Now 1:24 is way before the fall and it's a strange notion (to me at least) to think that livestock or cattle aren't food. Livestock is whatever living beastie you farm, after all.

"God's knowledge of good and evil is not our understanding of good and evil."

Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Oops... Looks like god has endorsed the serpent's word there, doesn't it? Sorry Sadie, the snake told the truth and nothing but the truth. Not only that, but the bit about the tree of life seems to dash your argument about man living forever too.

"My kids don't know exactly why I make the rules that I do. They just know to obey me because it's good for them."

If I were a betting man, I reckon I'd be willing to bet a sizeable amount that you're a bit like my wife and I and try to explain to your kids why you make the rules you do. They may not always understand fully, let alone agree (I have teenagers now...), but they probably do know your reason.

"It's just that you have this distorted idea of who God is in your life."

Not at all. I simply have no idea of god at all, but I'll address this in my next post. It's about time I think. My view on spirituality and god seems to be a little different to most of the atheists I read out there.

"I have prejudices that you just can't understand."

I think that probably works both ways Sadie, but it's also why we're having this fantastic difference of opinion, which I am enjoying immensely, BTW. Thanks...:)

"he gives the glory to God."

If he were only thanking god for his talents, I wouldn't have mentioned it. To him, it was god who gave him the job, personally and that simply was not the case. The manager that interviewed him (we lived in a small country town at the time) was not a christian and it was only his work ethic and abilities that got him the job. It was also made clear to him that evangelism in the work place would not be tolerated.

"How does one get to heaven on their own works? Is anyone "holy" enough?"

I'm afraid I can't help you there Sadie. That's a question that I should be asking you...:)

Edited by plonka on 29/3/2007 at 8:25 AM

plonka - 9:26 AM - 29/3/2007

Welcome back...

Snowy. Hope you had a fun trip...:)

Thanks for that. I think more people should probably look at your "My Belief's" blog. Your view of these things has the feel of wisdom about it...

plonka - 9:43 AM - 29/3/2007

Good to be back, Ted

Even though the trip to NZ was just great.

Thanks for the "commercial" pointing to my "My Beliefs" blog. As to the wisdom contained therein, that is for others to judge. If it helps someone looking for answers in this crazy old world, then it will have served its purpose.

snowy - 3:07 PM - 29/3/2007

Not By Works

"I must admit Sadie, they are beginning to get to me. I just finished the last however, so now it's 2 days to turn around then 12 hour day shifts on the weekend. Fun and games, but then I get a week off to recover...:) "

Enjoy that week to the fullest!???"Please note the word livestock/cattle. Livestock means just exactly that, live stock or food, beasts of burden, etc. Cattle means "livestock". Now 1:24 is way before the fall and it's a strange notion (to me at least) to think that livestock or cattle aren't food. Livestock is whatever living beastie you farm, after all. "

mmmm. That's a stretch considering:
Genesis 1:30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. ??"Oops... Looks like god has endorsed the serpent's word there, doesn't it? Sorry Sadie, the snake told the truth and nothing but the truth. Not only that, but the bit about the tree of life seems to dash your argument about man living forever too. "

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
Genesis 3:2 ¶ And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
Genesis 3:4 ¶ Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.

The snake you won't die...but God said they would die. Then--they were booted out of the Garden and then they died...and so do we all. The snake LIED!!??"If I were a betting man, I reckon I'd be willing to bet a sizeable amount that you're a bit like my wife and I and try to explain to your kids why you make the rules you do. They may not always understand fully, let alone agree (I have teenagers now...), but they probably do know your reason. "

Often times I will explain my reasoning for some of the boundries I set up for them but more often than not--they don't understand it because they don't know what's best for them the way I do.??"I think that probably works both ways Sadie, but it's also why we're having this fantastic difference of opinion, which I am enjoying immensely, BTW. Thanks...:) "

Me too.
:)??"How does one get to heaven on their own works? Is anyone "holy" enough?" ??It was a rhetorical question. I obviously know that we can not get to heaven on our own works.

Titus 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

Sadie - 2:17 AM - 30/3/2007

Out of hand...

"Enjoy that week to the fullest!"

Have no fear Sadie, I'm experienced at this. A relaxing day or 2 to catch up on rest and sleep, then it's time spent with the kiddies all week (school holidays this time...vacation in your language, I believe. It's probably getting close to spring break over there, yes?). Because my shifts tend to get in the way of life, when we can we do what we call "Dad days", where dad (that's me) tries to set an educational agenda where they get to experience new and wonderful things, learn something new and have a serious amount of fun, all at the same time. It doesn't happen often, so I look forward to it...:)

But this thread seems to have become rather subject specific. So, for my next post, I'm penning an article about the inconsistencies in Genesis 1, 2 & 3, as I see them, so you can seriously take me to task...:)

As to the kiddies, beautiful though they are, they don't always understand. But if you've explained your reasons and if they're like mine, more often than not they'll obey.

plonka - 12:23 PM - 30/3/2007

Looking Forward to It!

I'll come back for your next post. Enjoy your times with your kids--you sound like a wonderful parent.
My husband and I try to date nights--except we've been experiencing a lack of time, energy and finances as of late. The trials have been one right after the other. Thankfully, our nasty tenant situation is over and all we have to do now is clean up after her and sell the house.
Have a great weekend. If I miss your post, pop by my blog and give a whistle!
~S

Sadie - 5:46 AM - 31/3/2007