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• Tuesday 6 June 2006 - Let's go nuclear...

Posted in What I think

You know, I think I'd rather not, if you don't mind. I've heard a lot about this subject being tossed around lately. I don't think I like the idea that we're even considering nuclear power plants here... and for so many different reasons. There's the very real danger it poses... there's the fact that there are so many better and cleaner alternatives... there's the deadening of our senses and sensibilities that will result... the closing of the eyes... the complacency that's already started... then there's the ugly side-businesses and profiteering that is sure to come with it. Maybe as a child of the 80's I just see conspiracy theories everywhere I look... but then again... maybe because I'm a child of the 80's I can also offer some validity to my argument by saying that I remember the very sad, human side of Chernobyl first hand. But then... I'm a bleeding heart. Now, I don't even know if I'll be able to convey what I think, or even make sense of why it all worries me, but I'll try.

First... Typical Johnny and his stupid-ass liberal profiteering campaign again. Now, I hate making comment on political issues because I tend to get carried away. Besides, in my experience, politics (and religion, for that matter) can make enemies of even the best of friends. I almost didn't start this rant, but I'm going to make one comment, then I'll pass over the political side of this argument and move onto the environmental. As far as I can see, this is an idea that is only being considered because a bunch of liberal pollies want to fatten up their profit margin. I keep hearing about how this is going to reduce our country's debt, how it's the way of the future, how it's going to bring Australia in line with the rest of the world. Crap. We ARE in line with the rest of the world... ahead, in my eyes. If we didn't have a weed as a PM maybe we'd realise that ourselves. We're following little Johnny, blindlessly swallowing the drivel pumped out by his liberal politicism, but is that really the way we want to go? He's not the decisive leader he keeps telling us he is. He doesn't care about what's best for Australia or the average bloke. Nor does he really give a flying fart about what the majority of Australians think. If he did he'd stop lying to us about his party's policies. He'd stop promising one thing, then turning around and changing his mind as soon as he gets his own way. He'd give us the chance to have our say via referendums, rather than pump out more crap about how expensive it is to organise one. Instead, he's quite happy to follow the example of his 'US god'... happy to pick up the crumbs that that particular 'super power' leaves scattered around for him. And happy to drag the rest of us along on the ride. He's the kind of bloke that sounds very convincing when he's making us promises... then when we give him what he wants, turns around to us, sticks his tongue out, blows a raspberry and gives us the forks. "Suckers! Hyuck. You can't tell me what to do 'cause I'm the boss. Nah nah nah nah."

Oh, listen to me. Boy. So much for politics. Let's get back to my point.

Ok then... debt... the future... the rest of the world. We have more natural resources than most of the other countries in the world. The simple fact is that we COULD produce everything that we need right here... we could completely cut off foreign exchange if we really wanted to. Now, before you all get up on your high horses and tell me that that would be unrealistic, I know that. It wouldn't particularly be good for foreign relations, but still... we have enough backing us that we could sure as hell demand a greater say in the whole shebang than we give ourselves credit for. Who knows, maybe the rest of the world might show us a little more respect if we did. We're not a poor country by any means.... so why do we allow ourselves to be told that we need to do it for that reason?

Now lets tackle the cost of this type of power... is it really as cheap as we're led to believe? And should the cost be measured purely in monetary terms anyway? How much is the knowledge of a secure and safe environment worth? A shipload more than a bit of cheap electricity, I think. Besides, how much cheaper will this electricity end up being for the average bloke anyway? I really doubt it'll make much difference, in the long run. Take a good look at the US (and other countries)... they didn't get the massive cuts that were promised to them, so why, in our ignorance, should we believe that we will? I'd rather learn from mistakes than repeat them, if you don't mind.

Now, back to our resources. Another argument that I hear thrown up time and time again is that we have all this 'useless' land that we're not doing anything with. Who decides if it's useless? Politicians? Foreign politicians? Businessmen? Nuclear physicists? Spin doctors? They're all going to give us an un-biased opinion, aren't they? Let's be realistic. Aboriginals have been using this land for centuries... animals and birdlife use it... those who appreciate the fact that we have a wealth of unspoilt wilderness (albeit hot, dry wilderness)... it's not useless to them. I've never been to most of this land, but it's not useless to me either. However, there are a bunch of businessmen in some highrise somewhere who know that this idea is a massive gold mine. Think about this... If we build some reactors and start dumping waste in a big pit in the middle of the desert, is the next step to take in waste from every other stupid country in the world too? Why not? It'll make us some money... be good for business... line the pockets of some already very rich people. And it's only going to be waste for what... 500, 600, maybe 1000 years max, right? We're not going to be here in 500 years, but we can make some dollars off it now, and forget everything that might come after us, right? Right! Sure! But how do we know? What if all of those calculations are wrong? Even if they're spot on... who knows how valuable that land may end up being in the next 500 years? At the rate our population is booming, who's to say that we won't need to claim that land sometime, just to support our own numbers. And who's to say that some time in the next 500 years we won't be able to improve it sufficiently enough for it to become just as viable as the east coast. Let's use this analogy... it's like a kid taking his dollar down to the shop to buy lollies that he'll eat in two minutes, rather than putting it in the bank to accumulate and potentially... eventually earn  enough interest to sustain him through his retirement. It's just stupid to give up on something that we have, just because we can't see an immediate benefit from it.

And now for the safety aspect. This is NOT a safe way to produce power. Nuclear reactors DO blow up. It takes a lot to keep these installations running efficiently... I won't pretend that I know even half of the technicalities but I am not blind enough to discount that fact because of my ignorance. There may not be a HUGE risk, so most of us are happy to close our eyes to the potential ramifications. I hear about acceptable risk... but what is an acceptable risk? One nuclear accident? One nuclear accident in the next hundred years? One nuclear accident in an un-populated area? One very, very distant nuclear accident that occurs on the other side of the country and only kills a bunch of people that you don't know? But what if it's not? What if it's right in your own back yard? Would you think harder about the ramifications if that nuclear plant were to be built right next door to your house... your kids' school... your favourite camping grounds? I think most of us would. The fact is that they will need to be built somewhere. Somewhere next to someone... or someTHING's home. It's not just us we should be thinking about... nor is it just our children or our grandchildren either. The potential for disaster sometime in the next thousand years is actually massive. The fact is that there is too much risk involved. Even a tiny risk is too much... we should NOT become complacent about that.

Now, I've already said that we're not a poor country. Well, we're not a stupid country either. We are so lucky to have the chance to educate our children... and ourselves... as well as we do. It's about time that we start to use some of that education... those brains that we've given ourselves... and think. There are all these methods of sustainable energy at our disposal, so why not consider them first.

Solar, for a start. Why not push that? Each of us could sustain enough solar panels in our house to supply ourselves with power. More than enough. And with solar battery banks, most of us would even be able to store our left-overs for rainy days (pun intended). A tiny percentage of us, potentially, might not be able to make enough, fair enough. But a rather large percentage of us would be able to produce more than we can use... and more that we can even store. Why not re-circulate that power back into a community power grid of sorts?

Right, what about wind power. That falls down because people don't like living next to wind farms. Why? The windmills are noisy. So what? Get over it. For that matter, set one up in the desert. I mean, that's not going to deplete our potential natural resources.

Then we have hydro-power. Not as innovative... not as great, but it beats nuclear hands down. By leaps and bounds.

Now, my favourite, and personally preferred source would be thermal towers. These are not attractive installations, I'll give you that, but who really cares about the aesthetics of it... especially if we were to build them in the desert. These are tall cylindrical towers, as tall as a kilometer high I think, if I recall correctly. These towers, once they're built, would cost almost nothing to run. They work via a series of massive turbines inside the tower, which are turned by the rising of hot... or thermal... air. So where does the hot air come from? At the base of the tower is a massive clear plastic 'skirt', which is funnelled upwards slightly towards the tower. The sun shines through the clear plastic and heats the air underneath, then the air is 'sucked' up the inside of the tower, turning the turbines and producing energy. It's that simple. Oh, and there's another added bonus. Since the air underneath the skirt becomes heated, it produces a seperate micro-environment underneath. So... grow plants under there. You'd have to find something that can stand the hotter environment, I guess. I don't know what, I'm not that into plants. But, watering the plants creates a thicker atmosphere. You get evaporation, condensation, and eventually, rain. It doesn't matter where it's going to be built, but for argument's sake let's use the desert again. Not only could we use this 'useless' land to produce safe energy without damaging the environment... but we could also improve and use the land underneath. We kill two birds with the one stone.

Cheap... efficient... and good for the environment. Why would you not consider something so beneficial? Why? because there are a bunch of businessmen in some highrise somewhere who know that this idea would break them. Suddenly the poor would get richer, and (at least some of) the rich would get poorer. Not good for liberalism.

Check out this website about thermal towers. Read the info and have a really good think about it. If you want to know more there's other websites you can check out too. Do it! Then... if you agree with me... get onto the government and tell them that nuclear is NOT the way to go. At the very least, demand a referendum on this issue. Then tell all your friends to do the same. Not only do we owe that to ourselves and our children, we owe that to all Australians... present and future.
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• Tuesday 6 June 2006 - Exellent idea...

Posted by arseface
Wow... Great concept... Another alternative is fusion power, although it has yet to be invented. It would be safer, cleaner and MUCH more efficient than neuclear power, or any other for that matter... But much more expensive. Visit this site, http://www.fusion.org.uk/focus/index.htm, for more information.

P.S. I don't think hyperlinks work on whitepage... either that or I'm getting the code wrong. Probably the latter.

Edited by arseface on Tuesday 6 June 2006 at 10:02 PM
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• Tuesday 6 June 2006 - doing something that mattes

Posted by Phils
i live with a bunch of guys in brunswick, and we\'ve signed up for \'green energy\'. you pay a few dollars extra each month, and a certain percentage of your power is derived from renewable energy.
<br>
<br>the only way to change all this is to change demand, i reckon... convince everyone to sign up to companies that offer renewable, green energy and eventually the larger energy corporations will have to shift policy to give us what we want.
<br>
<br>thats my two cents anyway. decent post ;)
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• Tuesday 6 June 2006 - Let's go nuclear.......

Posted by josken1
I am not sure if this will work, but I have put in the html language for this sort of web site and hope for the best.
<a href="http://www.massivechange.com/ene_03.html"target=title>Thermal Towers</a>

As for your discussion about the nuclear power generation, and Chernobyl, there was also Three Mile Island in the USA and many other nuclear power station accidents which the nuclear industry doesn't really want us to know about.

There are, as you said, all the alternative energy sources available to us, but the problem is not just John Howard and the Coalition, it is also the Alternative Liberal Party (ALP) with people like our member of parliament Martin Ferguson who are wanting more uranium mining so that the capitalists can all get richer and the rest of us can all contemplate mutations in our children, grandchildren and people for the next 500,000 years, which is apparently the estimated activity time for depleted uranium to run out of radiation disasters.

When I was working for the New South Wales Energy Authority in the 80s, we were a department working on alternative energies for power supply, motor vehicles - we did a 5-year project on electric vehicles - and other energy-saving projects.

The nuclear energy "option" is not an option - the Howard government just wants to ensure more money-making for those, as you said, who sit in high-rises and decide what to do next with all their capital!

Keep up the anger - that's what gets us out into the streets to continue with our chants from the early days:

1,2,3,4, we don't want no nuclear war!
5,6,7,8, we don't want to radiate!
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• Tuesday 6 June 2006 - Untitled Comment

Posted by agnosticreligion
The people in the nuc reactor industry are trying to grow their markets just like every other industry, so spend some serious time chewing guvmint's ear.

Unfortunately, they're saying things like "it's impossible for plants based on new technology to melt down", and "new nuculear plants produce 1% of the waste that the old technology produces". The only people in a position to confirm/deny these things are the people selling the plants, and we know what they're going to say.

In the meantime, statements like that make nuc power look that much more attractive.

The current (& probably subsequent) government will continue to serve business interests, so geo-sequestraion and nuc power get all the attention, and nothing else does.
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• Tuesday 6 June 2006 - The sad thing is...

Posted by gryphonn
A large part of society has become so numb and compliant that all the protest in the world may not work to create positive change. I hate to be a pessimist, but I fear we may end up with Nuke plants and a huge dumping ground. There is plans for a Thermal Tower in outback NSW, but the company involved is having trouble getting funding from private enterprise, and support from the Federal Government. If our leader/s were serious, the project would already be underway.
See:
http://www.solarmissiontechnologies.com/FAQs.htm

This type of power (I won't call it 'alternative', it lends itself to people saying "damned hippies"), combined with Solar, wind and what Hydro power we already have, can be the new way to privide the energy we need. But as tinacee and others have stated, there is no money it for the rich, so it will very hard to get the ball rolling.
Compare it with Tobacco. We are bombarded with warnings about tobacco and how bad it is for us. We can no longer smoke in most public places, workplaces, work vehicle etc. We all *know* tobacco smoking can kill us. We all know that it costs millions (billions?) in health care expenses each year. Why doesn't the government make tobacco smoking and the sale of tobacco products illegal then? Because they reap billions in taxes each year from the product. BIG businuss reaps billions each year. That includes the cigarette manufacturers and the pharmaceutical companies.
Tobacco growers and the tobacco workers make jack out of it. Why won't the govt promote an 'alternative', such as hemp? Not for smoking, but for cloth, plastic alternatives, bio-fuel ... I won't go on with the endless uses. Why? Because money will begin to return to the little people. Until such time as the govt and big business can ensure they won't lose, no alternative products will make it into the mainstream. This is supposed to be a quick comment, so I'd better stop...maybe I'll elaborate on my blog.
But, please don't think I'm advocating giving up. Far from it. WE all need to stand up and fight NOW.
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• Tuesday 6 June 2006 - Excelent

Posted by plonka
Fantastic post Tina....:-)

I like what you say about all this, especially where massive profits being shared by very few is concerned. The problem is, so long as a government is reaping the benifits, they're hardly likely to disagree...with anything.

I too remember the halcyon days when we had the occasional referendum. Johnny knows we'd vote "NO!!!" though. He also knows that it wouldn't matter what he did, he wouldn't be able to make no mean yes and do it anyway, so don't expect one. He's not the type that likes to be told.

There's no doubt that modern nuclear facilities are much safer, use less fuel and therefore produce much less waste, but safer is NOT the same as safe, and less is NOT the same as none.

For acceptable risks and how they work, go to:

http://www.theyesmen.org/

You to can embrace Gilda, the Acceptable Risks Mascot (a golden skeleton) and play with the acceptable risks calculator. These guys should be knighted...:-)
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• Wednesday 7 June 2006 - Woah!

Posted by tinacee
What an overwhelming response. Not quite what I was expecting, but in a pleasing way. I was almost expecting a razzing for the 'Johnny and his stupid-ass liberal profiteering campaign' remark (sorry, I just had to write that again... Johnny and stupid-ass go together so well). I'm so glad that most of you didn't even mention the toady one because he was not the focus of this discussion. I'm bouyed once again, because of the focus on the very real environmental issue here. Now, let me see if I can reply to these comments.

Daniel... again, thanks for your comment. You might have to get to work on that fusion idea. We need something. As I said, I don't really understand the technicalities of a lot of the processes of alternative energy sources, but I fear that a lot of younger people don't understand the dangers of this particular evil. They haven't had it shoved down their throats all their lives, I suppose. And this is because most of us thought that this crap was over and done with here. We fought this battle in the 80's and 90's... and we won. But time makes people forget. And the generation gap provides new fodder for the greedy. Now 'they' think they can drag it all back up again and we'll just roll over. I'm glad to see that not all young people are just swallowing the mis-information that they're being fed.

Phils... The extra couple of dollars on our electricity bill, I guess, is a step in the right direction, and one that I support. But I wonder why they charge us more for something that is actually cheaper to produce? You are right though... demand IS the only way to change things. Unfortunately, big business knows that a lot of us are driven to consume the cheaper product through necessity. And anything that is 'new' or 'safe' or 'innovative' or 'good for the environment' is also a great way to make money. Those of us who really care will pay a little more. Sad, but true!

Josken1... Too right. We are fed mis-information by big businesses, and denied the right to an intelligent choice, simply because of their profit margins. Greedy people, who never seem to be satisfied by what they already have. Most of them have probably never experienced the joy of camping out under the stars, or listening to wild dingoes howl in the distance. It seems that they don't even know thet there is a world out there beyond their boardrooms. Sometimes I shake my head and wonder what the hell they are thinking. They live on this planet too, don't they? Ok, I know that they don't care about the rest of us. But where do they think they'll go when everything starts falling apart?

Agnosticreligion... again, too true. I'd prefer not to have to rehash all this, but at the very least we should be allowed to make a decision that's based on fact, not supposition. How dare we assume that we're going to be given all the facts and nothing but the facts. It's been proven time and time again that this is not safe... and I don't care how much 'safer' it is now. The potential for mass destruction is still there. It's like saying to your kid "It's ok to play on the road now. The brakes in today's cars are much better than 20 years ago. The risk of you being run over is much lower, and so much more acceptable. And while you're there I just might make a bit of extra pocket money by setting up a lemonade stall." We just wouldn't do it, would we?

Gryph... It all comes back to big business and making money. No matter what the business is... and the tobacco industry is an excellent example... they're not just going to hand it away, are they? They all have more than they need, but it's still not enough. What is all that money going to achieve for them when they've worked themselves into a heart-attack... or similar? It doesn't make a difference at all in the long run. It doesn't make them right... just self-righteous. It doesn't make them smarter... just smarmier. And YES. WE NEED TO FIGHT NOW BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE.

Plonka... Politics, AAARRGH! But you're right too. We won't get a referendum because the pollies know how loud we're going to scream. See, most people won't worry about doing something off their own bat because it's a bit difficult. But if it was placed in front of them and they were forced to have a say, they would. And they would scream very, very loud, I believe. No need to put up with all that ruckus, is there Johnny? BTW... I checked out the site... thanks... and doesn't it prove just how bloody stupid big businessmen really are?

Thanks to all of you for making comment on this issue. I really do believe it's too important to ignore.
Take care
Tina
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• Thursday 8 June 2006 - Renewable Energy

Posted by reptiletrader
First of all, it amazes me how so many people feel the same way as me about John Howard and yet he was still re-elected!

I saw an interview with a pro nuclear scientist on a morning news program this morning - he said he would be happy to have nuclear waste buried in his own back yard because it would give off heat for 10 or 20 years and help heat his house!!! (And his hair would fall out, his teeth would fall out, the cat's kittens would have 5 legs...)

I am currently looking into putting solar panels on my roof to cut down on my massive electricity bill. It is not that expensive considering:
- you boost the value of your "green" house (who wouldn't buy a house that has free electricity?)
- you have a house that has free electricity!
- if you produce more than you use you CAN sell back to the grid ie MAKE MONEY
- the Govt and the retail industries that sell gas hot water systems, solar hot water systems, solar panels, etc have rebates and Renewable Energy Credits (free electricity). Heaps of info on the net about REC's.

Become a 'green' consumer - not only can it line your pocket, it sends a clear message to the government.

By the way ... tell Johnny skinny arse how you feel by emailing him here

http://www.pm.gov.au/email.cfm

I sent him a lovely little note this morning!
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• Thursday 8 June 2006 - RE: Reptiletrader

Posted by tinacee
Thanks for Johnny's email address. I've been meaning to put it up. I was a little worked up the other day and I forgot.

You are totally right about solar power. We rent, but if we owned a house that would be the first thing we did too. It's not all that expensive when you consider the savings to be made out of not paying your electricity bill. If you're building a new house in the bush you need to pay the electricity board to put power poles up and run lines to your property. Sometimes, if you're a fair way from the nearest one, it actually ends up being cheaper to buy all the panels, etc. And to have your house wired to accommodate solar power is comparable to normal electricity. I don't know why more people don't do it. Maybe they just don't know about it.

And yes, you can sell your unused power back to the grid. Phils made a comment about paying a couple of extra dollars on your electricity bill to use renewable energy. This is where a lot of that energy comes from.

Thanks for being a conscientious aussie, reptiletrader.
Take care
Tina
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• Saturday 14 July 2007 - Nuclear V renewable

Posted by priestpaddy@hotmail.com
I am a physicists at an english secondary school, and am doin a study into nuclear V coal, while reading all the comments and data here, i couldnt help but laugh at what most of u thought on it.

Now nuclear power provides a much larger % of energy than coal and wind farms and other sources.

Austrailia i say, is a power, mayb not as big as america and some other countries, but still is rich enough to be a super power. If you use technology available, and not invest what might be foolish with climate change energy sources.

Austrailia also has huge amounts of uranium, which is already making your country radiated, other countries are buying this, making your country in a very powerful position.

Now no businessman is goin 2 give you a better deal unless he has to, if they are the only source of energy he has the right to charge whatever he wants, ive never heard of an honest business, the only way prices will drop is if their is another competitor, then they will drop prices till they cant drop no more.

Now u r saying that the desert land should not be used as a dumping ground for waste, it might be salvagable in many yrs time, you are also saying that wind turbines could be put up, you are then making this what some people call an eye soar (but i agree with u here it isnt reli that bad) also the amount of electric lines and what ever else they use to transport the energy costs alot more money than it being right next to the city, which is why they don't put the wind turbines in isolated areas, the cost is 2 high and any maintenance work needed will take alot longer to find the problem and fix it.

There are also scientists tryin to find a way to safely destroy the nuclear waste, so if successful (im aware IF is a pretty big word here) would b able to destroy the waste currently in circulation.

Krypton is also a by product of nuclear power, which is useful for a form of lighting, if more people were to use this then the waste would again be reduced (you can use the krypton straight away, when it is radioactve it is more useful)

and now for the safety aspect (made me laugh again) in england, we take many many years to dismantle a nuclear power plant, compared to other countries who just do it as quickly as possible, england (as far as im aware) has had no major catasprophe, because we enable the correct safety measures, although it could b cheaper to do things by half, safer in the long run is cheaper.

There is also not a huge risk, coal also (ive researched) has radioactive properties, and is just as dangerous or even more as the gases arent encased in several layers of protection.

Now i do like your idea of tryin 2 build as many renewable thermal towers and wind farms and solar pannels as possible, yet we come again to needs to b close to cities to mantain and be worthwhile, i think however your idea of an eco-system under the thermal towers is a lil wild, you would need water, and this again leads onto building pipes to these towers, which is cost effective.

Business people would also have realised a one off payment producing energy that they can charge you the same amount for is better for them, so think logically about that 1.

Now i do still love the idea of renewable resources, yet i know by doin research that it just isnt producing enough energy to be cost effective
if scientists had created away of destroying the nuclear waste there would no problem with it 4 me, yet atm it is the only way i can see that doesnt polute and produces enough energy.

I thank you 4 allowing me 2 rant :P it has also given me a gr8 amount of knowledge, i had never heard of thermal towers before you mentioned it.

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