Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - Graduate Programme - Day One (It Starts!)
The first day of work on the Graduate Program. And what a day it was.
We were up early - at least earlier than we rising before now - to ensure we were all ready for our first day. Of course, we had to also fax off the piles of application forms to the various real estate offices and that took time to organise. You'd be surprised how long it takes to remove staples to enable the various sheets of paper to go through the fax.
We ended up leaving the unstapled piles in the care of the Suites' front desk and headed off to work.
LadyWife had left some time before as she needed to travel all the way down to Tuggeranong, the locale of the head office of the Department where she works.
I also needed to duck out a few minutes earlier to drop the hire car back off at their office down the road. I ended up having to hurry to get to Garema Court by 9.00am, my nominal start time. But I need not have bothered. There was a stack of new Grads ahead of me waiting to be processed and await their supervisors. I ended up being processed at about 9.20am and Giri, my supervisor, came and collected me.
My first day of work in the public service was a real eye-opener and started off quite busy. It started with a quick introduction to the work of the section in which I would complete my first rotation and, of course, how important it was to the Department as a whole. I was also introduced to the others I would closely be working with.
Then I was put through the process of creating a Lan (or Intranet) account on the computer system, instructed on the way the telephone system was used both for external and internal calls, given a sheath of documents to call, attended a morning tea and another though bigger meeting of the staff, and feted by all as a new and valued member of "the team".
It wasn't until after 1.00pm before I could take a break and get some lunch.
I thank God the afternoon was much quieter and allowed me a chance to get a feeling of the workplace environment in which I was plunged.
It was also during the afternoon I receive two surprising and very pleasing calls on my mobile.
The first was from a computer repairer in Perth who was my computer tech of choice before he shut up shop. I had left an older model computer in his capable hands at his shop for a while and asked him to get it up and running for me "when he had some spare time on his hands". I wasn't of high importance to me and I knew he had work to do where people were in a hurry to get their computers back.
The computer was only a Pentium III but it filled the role of "spare" in our household. We had planned to give it to a nephew who spent a lot of time at our place so that he had one of his own (rather than having to keep borrowing mine or LadyWife's).
When he closed up his shop suddenly the computer was still in his hands so we had suspected somewhat that he'd absconded with it. So, his call to apologise most profusely and offer to replace it with a better one as soon as he could from his own pocket, was a most pleasing shock.
The second call was even more pleasing but was a worry at first.
The real estate rep for the property in Mawson that the three of us had seen last week - and absolutely loved - called to, at first, say there was concern about renting the property to us because none of us had a "rental history". I had to do some fast talking with logical reasons why we could be trusted with the property before she gave us the green light and granted us the property.
Woohoo! We now had a new home! At least we would now be free of the worry about not finding a property before our three weeks in the Clifton Suites were up.
The only issue that still remains is the rep wants us to "take possession" of the property earlier than the date we provided, Friday, 23rd February. That's only 10 days from now.
We had a meeting around the dinner table back at the Clifton after work and decided to counter offer a date two days earlier on the Wednesday. I need to ring her on her personal mobile tomorrow morning to give her than new date.
As we saw it, she was just trying to maximise the returns for her client by getting us into the place earlier.
We shall see what transpires as a result. We believe we're pretty safe to make such an offer as, at the time we initially spoke with her, the property had been advertised and opened previously and they had failed to receive even one offer.
We shall see what transpires on the morrow.
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Monday, February 12, 2007 - Even the Lord rested today
Sunday - A quiet day. No home opens, no frantic racing from one place to another. A day of rest for all of us and, boy, did we need it.
I, for one, was beginning to get quite short tempered and "snippy" with both LadyWife and Ian and Michael. The latter two say they didn't notice it - probably just being polite - but LadyWife sure did!
I got to the stage where LadyWife pulled me up short and gave me a good "talking to". Mind you, I did deserve it. I readily recognise that now.
Before dinner we gathered our 100 points of identification together again we trooped down to the front desk of the Suites and organised a dozen copies of each (a few spares) to go with the application forms we had collected. All up we needed 9 of 'em.
LadyWife cooked up a huge stirfry for dinner so that we could all sit down to a dinner together. It was one of her best and I know the other two appreciated her efforts. If we're going to live together in a share house this is the sort of situation that is going to become the common rather than the rarity.
After dinner us three guys got out the application forms and matched them up with our so-called 100 points of identification. We knew we weren't going to be able to drop them off at the various real estate agencies across metropolitan Canberra so we would need to fax them off the next morning.
By then it was late and we relaxed before heading off to bed.
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Sunday, February 11, 2007 - Busy Saturdays
Well yesterday, Saturday, was just as busy as the day before without the urgent rush out to the airport. Or the "dead" mobile. This time, however, LadyWife joined us in the mad dash search. Or, as another group we've kept running into put it, "The Great Race".
Another seven houses visited today; and another five application forms to fill out. There was one we all agreed we didn't like or want as it was way overpriced and another which was just a "pre" inspection as the owner/builder/landlord won't open the property for lease for another week or so yet but was willing to let us "have a look" while he was at the property doing landscaping work.
We have to pick up the application form for one of the properties on Monday from the Agent in O'Connor because he didn't have any (which is okay by me). But the other four we would need to fill out their respective application forms and gather copies of our "100 points" for identification ready for submission on Monday.
We finished with the last place at just after 5.00pm over in O'Connor and we headed back to our suites at the Clifton. LadyWife came to understand just what sort of a frenetic pace we've been maintaining during the days since we arrived and also recognised that we had literally made it a job to find a home.
Think about it now and see if you can see what I mean:-
We start the afternoon before scouring the website allhomes.com.au for new vacancies that have popped up during that day, and write those down to contact.
The next morning we're up at about 9.00am and perusing that morning's newspaper for the few listed there that didn't end up on the allhomes website. At this time those of us in Suite 612 are also taking turns in the shower and getting breakfast down out throats.
The home opens are listed in chronological order and, where time versus distance made two such openings clash, we'd determined which one gave us the best opportunity for success and discard the other.
By then we're ready to hit the road for the day so it's a matter of gathering up maps, keys, cards and assorted other travel paraphernalia and getting out the door.
By early afternoon we're pretty much finished (except for the odd one in late afternoon) so it's a chance for us to walk into Civic to get to the Internet cafe to see what had appeared during that day.
Early evenings are usually reserved for "share" opportunites that we have each managed to organise on our own in established share homes. These are usually a case of an individual "interview" with a person already living in a home. In almost all cases the vacancy is to replace a person who was being transferred out of the Territory, was moving out on their own, getting married or whatever. And such interviews are akin to a job interview where your walking in as another is walking out; and you're walking out as the next is walking in. Usually about fifteen or twenty minutes apart.
One such person told me quite candidly that they were interviewing over twenty people over a couple of days just to ensure that as many people as possible got the opportunity.
See what I mean?
Yesterday's trip to the Internet cafe also raised another problem with share accomodation. One of the places I went to for a share accommodation "interview" a few nights ago is occupied by a couple of young lawyers and graphic designer. They were looking for a fourth for a huge 4 bed 2 bath house on a quiet street within easy walking distance of Civic. I wasn't too sure about whether or not I'd be happy there but, hey, it'd be a roof over my head.
In yesterday's email check I'd received an email from one of the people there who informed me - and everyone else who'd applied - the room was no longer available. It seems the owner had received "an offer he couldn't refuse" and had decided to sell the property. Now this place was pulling in over $680 per week for the owner and he'd still been convinced to sell.
Many people are trying to buy a property here and the for sale market is even worse than the rental market. Some have been smart, and desperate enough, to track down the owners of the rental properties and offer them exorbitant amounts to try and convince the investors to sell.
We had often seen houses listed to lease and it would be pulled from the rental market before it had even been opened for inspection. One agent was happy to tell us why when we pretty much demanded to know why. It had been sold to a new home owner.
Yesterday morning's paper had a front page story "over the fold" about what was going on. It dealt with how many people are being priced out of the rental market here whilst the sale price is still pretty good. This means investors are getting a higher capital gain on their investment; or, to put it in good old aussie slang, they're getting a greater "bang for their buck". This'll eventually mean there will be more properties available for rent BUT it's not going to happen for a while yet.
According to the paper there will be approximately 5000+ extra "units" coming available over the next few years, but that's not going to do us a whole lot of good just yet.
A graduate had sent out an email to the 126-odd DEWR grads on the list of email contacts we received before we arrived here inviting everyone to a poolside party at the Clifton Suites' pool. This was supposed to occur last night but, just before the appointed time of 7.30pm the weather turned bad and it bucketted down with rain. With no cover around the pool edge, except for some sunshade umbrellas, the planned party was going to be a bust.
However, the lass organising it simply invited everyone back to her suite and we all crowded into there.
LadyWife and I left at around 9.30pm because we still hadn't had any dinner and we were both tired from the hectic week of home hunting.
That night the two of us sat down with the application forms gathered of that and the previous day and filled them out.
When the other two guys made an appearance, much later in the night, they also sat down and filled out their respective piles of application forms.
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Saturday, February 10, 2007 - LadyWife arrives... to frenetic activity.
Well, my chance to get to the Internet cafe was a busted flush. After all the planning I went and forgot my thumb drive and left it back in the suite. *sigh*
So, what happened yesterday after the previous entry...
As mentioned I headed straight out with the others down to Civic for the Internet cafe leaving my thumb drive behind. However, I wasn't to know that until I got there.
During the walk down I received a call from Mum ringing me back after I called her about three days ago. (No doubt my sister forgot to tell her I'd called.) She's been a bit sick with a bad flu/cold and lost her voice a fair bit. So, whilst trying to talk to her while walking she had a very raspy voice, I had the noise of traffic whizzing by, and trying to get through busy intersections. I ended up walking into a petrol station to talk to her.
That was a bit of a long call but it had been a while since I'd talked to my Mum and I was a bit worried about her. However, my phone had been "on" for sometime and the battery was starting to get a bit low.
We arrived at the Internet cafe and, whilst searching for even more homes to go and see, I received a call from DEWR with where and to whom I was to report on Monday.
About bloody time. There wasn't that much time left before close-of-business for the week so I was seriously contemplating just rocking up to the main doors of the main office on Monday morning and refusing to leave until I was told where I was to go and to whom I was to report.
Ian heard I was talking to someone from DEWR and that it was about my placement so begged me to keep whoever it was on the line so he could talk to them to.
After I wrote down my details for Monday he grabbed the phone and got his too.
Now the battery is getting really low.
No sooner had I hung up on her when my best mate from Perth rang me up to tell me he had received a call from a real estate here in Perth for a "reference check". I managed to talk to him for only a short time before the battery in my phone died completely and I had no way of being able to charge it.
We had to leave the cafe then and head back to the room to get the car to go to the next home open. I really didn't want to go because, without my phone being on, LadyWife had no way of ringing me when she landed to let me know she could be picked up. And I couldn't just borrow someone else's because I didn't have Mel's number anywhere but stored on the phone.
So, we hurried back to the suites, I quickly put the phone on charge so I could turn it on, and I was able to get Mel's number from it AND send her an SMS to let her know I would be both delayed and that my phone was dead.
Now we could race out to the final home open for the day which was aggravatingly only a few minutes before I needed to be at the airport.
I was delayed in getting to the airport because Ian and Michael _really_ wanted to see this other home open. I told them I had to go to the airport to pick up Mel by 4.30 but Michael said he had specifically organised with the ladlord to inspect the property and 4.15pm was the only time they could be available.
So, I had to message LadyWife to let her know I was going to be about 15 minutes late. I really don't like doing that to her because I had specifically promised. And a promise is a promise.
We get out there and the property was wall to wall with people inspected the property. So much for it being a "special" showing for us. We could have skipped it after all. Still, it was a bloody nice property and we're going ahead with putting in an application for it.
The plan was we were only supposed to be there for a couple of minutes but Ian and Michael LOVED the place and spent time looking in and through everything. The "couple of minutes" turned into almost 15 minutes. IOW, we ended up leaving there about two minutes before I was supposed to be picking LadyWife up. That really pissed me off and got me frazzled.
Eventually I arrived out at the airport THIRTY minutes late rather than 15 and found LadyWife camped outside the doors sitting on her suitcase.
Quickly stopped at the kerb outside the doors (where it's actually forbidden to do so and loaded her bags into the back. She jumped in the front and we were off back to the Clifton Suites. It wasn't until we arrived there that I was even able to give her a kiss and cuddle and welcome her properly.
Got to go for now... My currently very frantic life beckons me to return to it to yet more pre arranged appointments..
Talk again soon.
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Friday, February 9, 2007 - Homehunting like crazy!
Today is going to be a busy day. We already have six open homes lined up to visit from late morning through to early afternoon. One of which I won't personally be able to go and see because I'll be out at the airport picking up LadyWife at 4.30pm.
LadyWife will also be joining us to see a privately arranged home inspection shortly after her arrival and will also be joining me in the evening when I have an "interview" for a shared accommodation opportunity in Reid.
Later:
Its just gone 2.30pm and we've already gone to 6 home opens today. Everything from inner city two bedroom apartments to a four bedroom house out at Watson. Thank God we've had the car!
As it currently stands we've all agreed that the place out at Woden is the best and, with three of us sharing, comes to about $200 to $230 each dependent on who has what room. It's not the best location-wise as it means catching a bus into work but, for me at least, it's halfway between Civic and Tuggeranong for Mel.
I'm just about to head down to Civic to pay a visit to the Internet cafe to post all this.
Then it's out to another home open before ducking out to the airport to pick up LadyWife. She just phoned to let me know she's at Melbourne awaiting her connecting flight. Woohoo!
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Friday, February 9, 2007 - Going to Manuka
We've just arrived back from Manuka and now it's just after midnight.
The plan was for some of the Clifton DEWR grads to get together, about a dozen of us, and head over to Manuka for a couple of hours. Our apartment is a fair size but it was jammed with twenty people overtaxing the air conditioner _and_ we ran out of chairs. It ended up being about six cars making the trip in total.
A convoy was impossible as quite a few got lost so we ended up rounding up people in Manuka. We weren't meant to be having a meal there but some said they hadn't had time to eat dinner so everyone had to order something fr us all to sit in the outside seating of a restaurant.
I had hoped it was only going to be a couple of hours getting us back to our suite by 10pm at the latest but it's now gone midnight already.
Due to a persistent cold I developed on the flight over here I haven't been able to shift I didn't get much sleep last night so I was hoping for any early night tonight. Such is life. And why am I up writing this instead of getting some sleep? Simple answer - I cannot physically get to sleep after driving even a short distance for at least an hour after I've gotten out of the car.
Hence, I'm sitting here adding to this blog and watching a bit of telly while I wind down.
Update to the last blog entry: DEWR does have another office location. It's only a couple hundred meters north of Civic up Northbourne Avenue. I must've walked past it a good half dozen times or so every time I've walked from here at the suite and into, or back out of, Civic and haven't seen it yet. So that makes six different office locations.
I learned the above when I met a DEWR employee just before the get together tonight (or last night as it's after midnight). He also told me that DEWR were looking towards moving all the various offices into one big new office building out at Brindabella Business Park in the future. Howeve, the building wasn't finished yet and he didn't know when that would be. Hopefully it won't be for at least a year so I can finish my graduate program first.
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Thursday, February 8, 2007 - We look out at the Lookout
Ian has a couple of friends from Perth who moved to Canberra quite some time ago and he's managed to catch up with them. A really nice couple who offered, last Tuesday night, to take us on a night time trip up to the top of Mt Ainslie to see the views of Canberra at night. From up there you can really get a feel for how Burley-Griffin designed the layout of the city and the forethought that went into it. The man was obviously a visionary.
One of the views is straight ahead from the lookout and looks down upon the rear of the Australian National War Memorial and then straight-lines away from you down Anzac Terrace, across the lake, directly to the middle of the main doors of (the Old) Parliament House, and continues in a straight line to the flag pole that sits atop the centre of the new Australian Parliament House. What a sight!
It's now Thursday afternoon and I STILL have no idea where or to whom I'm supposed to report on Monday morning. Some others here have been phoned or emailed or both with information on where they're to report but most of us, that I'm aware of, have not heard a thing. I'm aware of about twenty other people who are DEWR grads staying here at the Clifton Apartments and we're bumping into each other in hallways and/or in the main foyer. Internal calls within the Clifton are free and we're calling each other's apartments and organising get-togethers at night to discuss the homehunting trials and tribulations of the day.
One such get together is tonight in the apartment Ian and I now share before we head off in a couple of cars to see the sights of Manuka. Simply put, we need to let off a bit of steam. There's now three of us with cars at the moment so car pooling is currently the order-of-the-day for the rare "excursion" we want to do.
Manuka, from what I understand of it, is Canberra's version of Perth's Subiaco. It's full of fashion stores, restaurants, nightclubs and pubs with the occasional grocery store, newsagent, chemist or fast food outlet thrown in. When Parliament is in session you can occasionally bump into one of "our" political representatives that you often read about in the papers or see on the televised news.
LadyWife arrives in Canberra at 4.30pm tomorrow and I'm really looking forward to her first visit to me over here. She'll be staying at the Clifton with me until Sunday when we both head down to stay a night in Tuggeranong. This means my first day in the graduate program - wherever that happens to be - will mean about a 40 minute bus ride from "Tuggers" (as I've come to understand many past graduates call it) in to work _if_ I'm working in the city center. Then it's back to the Clifton after that one night until she flys back to Perth a little over a week later.
Originally the plan was for her to go into work at the Medicare HQ for an allday meeting on the Monday, then have the rest of the week off before going back down there on the Monday for a couple of days of further meetings, then flying back to Perth. Now she's going to be working in Tuggeranong for the duration excepting the weekends.
I think I should explain what I meant by that "wherever it happens to be" statement. DEWR doesn't occupy just one office area/space/building in Canberra. The Department has outgrown it's main office in Garema Court in the centre of Civic and has spread out. We already know there's also a small office located around the corner in the Sarason Building, there's further offices down the road a bit and located within both 10 & 12 Mort Street, and another office located at the Brindabella Business Park out near Canberra Airport about 15 minutes to the east. If there's any more office spaces occupied by DEWR within Canberra I don't know of them, but it wouldn't suprise me if there are others.
I know, however, I'll be really annoyed if I manage to secure accommodation within easy walking distance of Civic and then learn I'll be spending my days out at the Airport. And, knowing what luck I've had of late, that's where I'll be sent.
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Wednesday, February 7, 2007 - It's a madhouse!
We've been in Canberra for a few days now and the rental/share market is even worst than we believed.
We've been given this free accommodation for three weeks. Within that time we all need to make our own accommodation arrangements and move out of here. I thought it would be a bit of a challenge but not as much as it actually has been. It's madness out there!
With rental properties we've been to as many as we possibly can get to each day. So far Ian and I have tried to see about a dozen but have only managed to get to about seven on time. Each "viewing" time at an apartment/house/townhouse/flat is only open for viewing once and is also only open for fifteen minutes max. At each there would also be between twenty and thirty groups of people all vying for the same place. We're also seeing the same groups at many of the same properties.
Another problem is a place is advertised for a viewing time and then cancelled later. However, we only find this out when we get there. We've been reduced to shanks's pony (walking) and catching the bus so much time has been wasted on these.
LadyWife and I arranged for a hire car so, after being in Canberra for three and a half days without a car, we've become able to look at properties that would've been too far for us to waste on one property on its own without one. We've even been to Woden (an outer suburb to the south) twice so far to see two properties.
Oh, and rent in Canberra is at crazy prices. We saw a villa unit out at Woden that was renting for $620.00 per WEEK! Admittedly it was very, very nice and had huge rooms, ducted vacuum system, alarmed, dishwasher and just about ever other mod con you could think of but... sheesh!.. It's still only a villa and it's still a fair bit out of the city. But that's what the market is like over here. It's a lessors dream and renters have to "suck it and see". On top of that, the way this city is designed with groups of satellite cities such as Woden, Weston Creek, Tuggeranong, and Belconnen, nowhere is really an "outer" suburb anymore. Even Queanbeyan, just over the border in NSW, is only about 20 minutes drive from Civic and only a couple of minutes drive from the Brindabella Business Park.
The Commonwealth Government has even put many of the Headquarters/offices of each Department out in these satellite cities, too. For instance, Medicare is "headofficed" in Tuggeranong, so too is the Australian Taxation Office and Centerlink. Veterans' Affairs are out at Woden with a couple of others. And yet more are out northwest towards Belconnen.
Even the Embassies are now spread out more than just in Yarralumla. Looking at a map I've managed to pinpoint twenty three embassies located out at Woden.
It's this sort of urban planning that has made property prices and the rent market quite flat right across the whole of the Canberran "metropolitan" area. It doesn't matter if you rent about five minutes walk out of the city to the north, or live thirty minutes drive to the south. The prices are very nearly the same. I actually think properties around Tuggeranong are slightly higher than in the "inner" north.
Anything under $350 per week is almost derelict or never more than a two bedroom pokey flat. Sometimes you get to see something that is - what we would consider - a fair price, but it's because the owners of the property are extremely choosy and are waiting for what for them is "the right couple". "Singles", and that includes graduates, trying to find somewhere in a shared accommodation situation won't even get a look in. We've learned it's a waste of time to even make the effort to fill out an application form in far too many instances. But we do it anyway because you've got nothing to lose but a little time and miracles can - and do - happen.
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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 - First days in Canberra
I'll start here with the day I arrived in Canberra from Perth.
Whilst I wasn't due to start work with the Department of Workplace Relations (DEWR) until Monday, 12th February 2007, I had already received word late last year as to the difficulty of locating and securing permanent accommodation within Canberra. Therefore, LadyWife and I made the decision for me to go a week early so that I would have a full week free of work commitments to find somewhere to live. Including the weekend that meant I would be flying to Canberra on Saturday, 3rd February which was agreed to by DEWR.
I wasn't the only person within the WA DEWR graduates who had the same or a similar idea. DEWR required us to take a direct flight to Canberra and there are only two on a Saturday. One departs at 12.05am and the other at 4.35pm.
Out of about 25 WA DEWR graduates I had already met 8 of them a week earlier when we arranged a get-together amongst ourselves. We discussed at that time when we would all be arriving in Canberra and many had similar ideas of arriving about a week earlier. It was quickly discovered that there would be four of us who were all taking the same 4.35pm flight on the same day.
Therefore, arriving at the airport I knew that I would know three other DEWR graduates on the same flight as me. It actually turned out that I knew five. I also recognised a fellow ECU graduate who I went and said hello to. He said he was starting in a graduate position with the Department of Veterans Affairs. And I also recognised another person who was flying to Canberra to continue her uni education but switching to the Australian National University.
Three of us arranged on the flight over to share a taxi from the airport to our hotels to save money but I got delayed when I discovered one of my bags was badly damaged whilst in transit. It then took about half an hour for me to file a damage report with the airport over goods damaged. I wasn't so much worried about damage to the bag as it was supplied by the airline, but some of my stuff inside was ruined. Filing the complaint meant I was late in getting out to the taxi but the other two grads travelling with me held back. I was literally the last passenger out of the airport before it was closed up for the night and in the last taxi out.
The other two in the taxi with me were dropped off at the Clifton Apartments on Northbourne Ave in Braddon and I was dropped off another 3 kilometres north of them at the City Gate Motel in Lyneham.
I was originally put into the City Gate Motel all on my lonesome. It's a dump! And I wasn't happy there. All the other DEWR graduates, for the most part, were in the Clifton Apartments about a fifth of the distance from Civic (what they call the city here) as I was. And if they aren't at Clifton then they're at the Medina a couple of hundred yards away.
One of the guys I knew from Perth, Ian, rang me the day after we got here and was telling me how he was put up on his own in a two bedroom apartment. He had so much room available to him he didn't know what to do with it all. I told him about my accommodation and he immediately invited me over to take a look at his. After seeing his place (which made mine look like a hovel) he then invited me to move into his spare room. I leapt at the chance!
Both of us prefer this arrangement as we're both used to having other people around us and HATE being on our own.
So, now I'm in the Clifton, too. At least it's closer to everyone else and only a ten minute walk to Civic (rather than the half hour plus I had while at City Gate).
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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 - First real entry... It starts!
The idea of this blog is to keep a chronological record of what life is like for a new graduate who has been accepted into a graduate program within the Commonwealth Government of Australia.
So, a little bit about myself, and what led me to becoming a 42 year old in a Commonwealth Government graduate program, to whet your appetite, is available [here later].
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Tuesday, February 6, 2007 - 6th February 2007
I've little access to the Internet, at the moment, so I'm writing this in my suite at the Clifton Apartments in Braddon and will post it into the blog when time permits. So, this means the dates the messages will be posted may, for the time being, be quite a few days after the entry was actually written.
Due to this I'll put the actual date of writing at the top of each post as the subject line so readers won't be confused.
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About Me
Covers the first year of a member of a Graduate intake into an Australian Government Department. The trials and tribulations; the good times and bad.
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