4/7/2008 - Slimebay and the ACCC......
OK.... SlimeBay rocks - or does it.
One of the reasons I personally just hate Ebay is because the most insane and shittiest aspect of humanity, - are the people who run it.
Like my family is FULL of crazies.... real bonafide nutters.... - the ones who aren't whoring, running drugs, murdering other people etc., are the NORMAL people...
And the NORMAL people in the family - are the most insane arseholes I have ever met.
They are all sick fucks playing mind games...
The management of Ebay and Paypal, - the way they treat people, is the psychological equivalent of being molested at 5 years old...
When the adult - she or he, gets caught with their hands in your pants, they turn around and say, "Oh I was just helping them pull their pants UP... "
Well - "No you wasn't you fucking arsehole...."
And it's the same lies you get from the people who run Ebay and Paypal....
Making up all the mind fuck policies and square dancing their way around providing any honest or responsible customer service and then trying to force people to use PAYPAL for all transactions....
And when called on it, they say, "Oh we are only doing it to make it a safer online expereince"...
Oh nooooo your not, your trying to rip everyone off, by making them ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY use the payment system, owned by Ebay, at the fees set by Ebay, on all auctions listed on the Ebay site.....
The events after the ACCC intervention, where there were ~700 submissions, and almost everyone said "Ebay are just foul, untrustworthy and greedy"... and almost everyone agreed with each other by stating the Ebays act of trying to make the exclusive use of Paypal compulsary - is a scam.
Well after a "public consultation" - where people rocked up and had a public discussion in the ACCC's meeting room, again, Ebay had their noses rubbed in their own shit, and it appears to be the case that Ebay is not so totally stupid, even after copping enough flack to bring down every airforce in the world, that they'd get into a legislative fight with the ACCC, that they can't win....
The scum who manage Ebay, have however decided that it's smarter to step around the brick wall than keep trying to head butt it.... and they have instituted a policy (another ebay policy?) of forcing every seller to accept a "We will force you to provide the "PAYMENT by PAYPAL" as an accepted payment method option, on the sellers auction.
Remember this, that the "Ebay community" is not actually a community, it's more like a privately owned vacant block of land, that the owners hold a market on the land and it hires out space to people to sell their stuff.......
The fact that people generally try to be nice and find that it's to their advantage to trade honestly - is something that Ebay exploits to the max - by saying that the natural predisposition of people to commune, is an "Ebay phenomona".
Well will call the owners of the land - "Scumbay Co."..
And now the land owners, having lost their case to make all the sellers and buyers only transact using the sellers "Scumbay cards - from the Scumbay Loanshark Financial Co." - they are now undertaking several other similar courses of action to actually having succeeded at making all people buy and sell only using the Scumbay Loanshark Financial Co. .
1. Ebay is now forcing ALL people to be subjected to a webpage spamming campaign, telling them incessantly - that Paypal is the preferred and Safest way to pay; and
2. Ebay is making all sellers host PAYPAL adds on their pages, saying PAYPAL is an accepted option, even if the seller never asked for the add, or wants the add, or doesn't want to have to transact the sale via Paypal; and
3. Ebay / Paypal - are pulling the auctions of all people who are saying, "We don't want to use Paypal, we prefer Direct Deposit"... and
4. Ebay / Paypal are mining all the Ebay forums, and removing the posts that are "contradictory" to Ebays scumbag antics.
The people who run Ebay and Paypal really are no different to a bunch of men and women who molest children - the only difference is that instead of them fucking with your body, your mind and your life, they are fucking with your mind, your life and your income.
The lies, the cover-up's, the manipulation, the scams, the bullying and the arrogance..
The repercussions of Ebays scumbag antics, are that the forums and feed back sections of the newspapers and computer mags, are filled with the comments of "Tens of Thousands" of really pissed off people.....
What I have cut and pasted into here is completely NORMAL feedback about Ebay.
And there is so much really bad feedback and comments about Ebay and Paypal - I really could make an 24 volume encyclopedia, from it all.....
So here is just a tiny little bit of it....
http://blogs.smh.com.au/mashup/archives//019361.html
eBay continues PayPal forcing
eBay sellers are reporting that eBay is systematically deleting auction listings from sellers who state in their item descriptions that they "prefer" to be paid with non-PayPal methods, such as bank deposit.
Other sellers are complaining that eBay's website and checkout policy gives buyers the impression the PayPal is the only way to pay.
Are you an eBay seller or buyer? Have you encountered this sort of strong-arming from eBay?
Posted by Asher Moses
July 4, 2008 12:15 PM
LATEST COMMENTS
I sold an item on ebay a month ago. I was forced by ebay into offering Paypal as a payment option, and the purchaser chose to use it. Not only did I lose money on extra fees, but Paypal converted the payment into US Dollars, and when I transferred the money from Paypal into my bank account they converted it back into AU Dollars. On an item worth $450.00 I lost $27.00 over and above the charges levied by Ebay!!!
I am still trying to get Ebay to recompense me for the $27.00
* Posted by: geoff on July 4, 2008 12:42 PM
If paypal was such a wondeful service and as great for all users as ebay says that it is then wouldn't everyone want to use it? Why is it needed to be pushed all of the time?
It should compete for its customers on service and price just like every other business. If it is really that good, people will use it without having it rammed down our throuats all of the time.
* Posted by: Karen on July 4, 2008 12:57 PM
I've seen a number of eBay sellers stating that "PayPal is Accepted but Direct Deposit is Preferred".
My first Paypal Transaction was not through ebay but PayPal they took over $160 in fees from me in a single transaction when an overseas buyer wanted to pay from the USA via Paypal. This was billed to me under the guise of "currency conversion" fees. I was actually pretty disgusted. Since then, I have joined eBay as an occasional seller/buyer ...but I prefer not to use Paypal. I've always offered it without being forced to but the extra fees are as bad as having to wait nearly a week to be able to access the money from Paypal after a sale is made. Furthermore, if a customer wants to scam you, it's easier for eBay to freeze your money and refund to the buyer before the truth is revealed. This allows scammers to get both a refund PLUS the shipped goods.
Don't get me started on how FLAWED their feedback system is.
* Posted by: MN on July 4, 2008 1:00 PM
I had 8 auctions pulled this week by Ebay, because despite offering PayPal I stated: "Bank deposit preferred for Australian Buyers". Ebay can go to hell, I've moved over to oztion which, despite not being as pretty, isn't a rip-off for sellers by hitting them with listing fees, sales commission AND paypal commissions.
Bye-bye, Fleabay.
* Posted by: Shillard on July 4, 2008 1:06 PM
I solved the forced use of Paypal problem - I have stopped using eBay for both purchases and sales.
My experience of trying to get a refund for one eBay purchase, paid for using PayPal, of goods that didn't match the eBay sellers description beggers belief.
* Posted by: Peter on July 4, 2008 1:08 PM
and who says it is cheap to use Paypal??
They stated 1.1% - 2.4% + 30c for local payment, but, 1.1% is for $150,000 and over transaction.
Not everyone have $150,000 transaction and the majority of users will be slapped with 2.4% + 30c commission.
Even 2.4% is not quite right.
You sold second hand DVD for $5, Paypal commission is 2.4% + 30c = 42c, which mean "total" paypal commission is close to 10% !!!!!!!!
* Posted by: nopaypal on July 4, 2008 1:09 PM
Why don't you just contact PayPal with your grievances?
Ms Tiffany Zaporowski
Manager - Escalations
Level 19
1 York Street
SYDNEY NSW 2000
PHONE (02) 8223 9500
OR 1800 073 263
email - tzaporowski@paypal.com
I'm sure they'd be happy to hear from everyone.
* Posted by: JR on July 4, 2008 1:10 PM
Remember when Ebay (and others)was always on about the "free market" and that the internet was changing commerce blah blah blah. Seeems like they are beginning to look just like any other commercial company.
* Posted by: Mal C on July 4, 2008 1:11 PM
Although I can understand that eBay is trying to protect buyers from scammers (often happens with direct deposits), as Paypal provides a good service and insurance.
I do think that it would be more important for eBay to ensure the products offered are legitimate - i guess 90% of the nintendo DS consoles on offer are fakes, most MS software is illegal and there is no guarantee that the seller from say NZ is actually shipping and not reselling from China!
Priorities eBay.
* Posted by: Cor Visser-Marcdhant on July 4, 2008 1:15 PM
It states on ebay when you select paypal as a payment method that "paypal is the preferred method of payment" for the auction listings.
I prefer direct deposit. I always have. I should be glad that when I recently paid extra money to run a subheading stating I give users a 10% reduction in their postage costs if they pay into my bank account, that they didnt take down my listings.
I can only hope the ACCC still makes it recomendations to eBay. Us as seller really need some help here. Paypal staff when they can be reached are about as helpful as a kick in the side of the head and no matter what you do to dispute a transaction they always side on the buyers behalf. Theres no seller protections and never have been. The fess between ebay and paypal are crazy...
Direct deposit into my bank costs me NOTHING!
* Posted by: Cameron on July 4, 2008 1:20 PM
Ebay does force Paypal to be used they took about 16 of my auctions off a month ago approx. because i didn't have paypal listed as a metod of payment I wanted bank deposit payments.
Also ebay reuses the sellers to add on the rip off paypal fees after the auction is over, how's that for a rip off.
the seller if he or she wants to add them on prior to auction must try and guess what they will be.
This in it's self is a rip off to the buyer and can also be for the seller.
ACCC is time to regulate and sort this crap out once and for all.
Sellers & buyers support our own auction web sites , let ebay go to hell.
I hope they collapse big time.
* Posted by: John on July 4, 2008 1:22 PM
The below article was posted on the Seller Central discussion board by someone who claims to be inside eBay management… this post was pulled by eBay moments later. It explains a lot about the recent changes to feedback, DSR, "best match" and so on.
__________________________________________________
I posted this at the feedback forum at eBay but it was killed by staff less than a minute later. I should have known. My ID will be toast soon anyway. This was the only other place I thought where my statement might have an impact. Do with it what you will. After Chicago, my only desire is to be heard.
There will be those who will not believe me and I sympathize. I wish the facts were fiction but to deny what I know would be to live in a fairyland of make-believe. I understand that the bulk of this “manifesto” reveals a plot so against the spirit of eBay that it will be dismissed as lie. So be it. I cannot force the world to accept it. All I can do is state the truth as I know it and leave it to you and to your common sense and experience to judge.
The deck is stacked against me. Aside from the natural resistance to believe I know that the boards are stocked with eBay’s tools. Their goal will be to discredit me. I will be accused of being a “disgruntled”, “paranoid”, and “emotional” seller. Their words will be specially chosen for effect. That is part of the function of the tools and I am not fazed by it. However, to protect my own identity within the corporation, I cannot be too specific lest the details single me out to the powers that be.
What I intend to reveal is common knowledge to many in the management division behind the scenes.
By the way, the tools are not only the mouthpieces that promote the policies. The psychological tactics employed by the powers that be are far deeper and grander than that. The subtlety of the method is remarkable. The tools come in a wide range of flavors with their own, individual “characteristic” rhetoric. From those who are “for” the policy – and spread various degrees of hostility toward the sellers – to those who are “against” the change – and spread panic and further the divide with the buyers. Both serve the same exact purpose: a manipulation designed to remove the more involved and savvy small to large sellers who will not fit into eBay’s future business plan.
First, let me correct the record regarding the concept of sellers extorting positive feedback. While the violation was known to happen, the activity amounted to less than a tenth of a percent of the yearly transactions. Further, it involved sellers whose feedback percentages were below 80%. The absolute majority of sellers did not engage in such practices. Nevertheless, the powers that be could not resist the fact that promoting this notion of feedback extortion as a wide-spread phenomenon would be the perfect cover with which to hide the true intentions of the policy.
The powers that be want to transform eBay into an overstock warehouse venue. A kind of outlet store for the internet much like a cheaper and streamlined version of Amazon. From a strictly business point of view, given the size of eBay and the growing costs of doing business, it makes a certain kind of sense to shift gears. Think about it: when eBay started, sellers were about rare and unique items but here and now the majority of items are common, used counterparts of what can be found new online at retail sites. Truly rare and unique items are sold at real auctions; the “stuff in your attic” isn’t glamorous enough and won’t keep eBay afloat any longer.
The trend away from the rare and unique to the big box retailer is not new. Several years ago the powers that be noticed that the big “powersellers” were simply listing items that existed in their retail stores or inventories. Thus the concept of “buy it now”, “best offer”, and “eBay stores” were created. It was the nascent stage of the plan yet to be. Little by little, without the population noticing, the mechanisms required to replicate the average retail storefront were already in place – and with its rise came the slow, steady downfall of the auction format.
Yet outright pursuit of a retail venue would have led to a major problem that at the time could not have been surmounted. The vast majority of people, on and off line, know eBay as precisely the place for auctions of rare and unique items. The sellers and buyers held onto that perception too but in truth their opinion even involvement in new and improved version of eBay is irrelevant by a certain Machiavellian calculation made by the powers that be. As part of the plan, eBay calculated thus: even if they lost the sellers as part of the change, the buyers will be coming back to buy regardless of who or what operated within the retail-outlet venue.
No, it was the stock holders who the powers that be feared.
Only the stockholders had the power to change the direction set forth by the CEO and the board. So it became imperative to change the equation. Part of the plan is to devalue the stock gradually so that investors merely dumped the stock as opposed to wanting managerial change ala Yahoo. Then to buy back the stock at lower cost and to such a volume that no rebellion against the powers that be were possible.
By the end of July that phase of the plan will be successful and there est of the plan will be revealed without fear of backlash from those who otherwise would have had the power to pull eBay back from the brink.
Indeed, if you believe the current changes are obvious signals that small sellers are not wanted – be prepared – you have seen nothing yet.
So far what have they done? All they have managed to do is silence a seller’s ability to warn others about buyers (half of the purpose behind the original idea of feedback), burden you with higher and higher fees, dangle “treats” like discounts while setting the bar of eligibility so high that the rewards cannot be reached. and, by the way PayPal deals with “complaints” leave you vulnerable to fraud. What if worse was yet to come?
They know if you do not feel safe that you will not use eBay. The changes that have been enacted only eliminates the small sellers. Meanwhile they want to eradicate the mid-sized seller too. And they want to ensure that both do not return.
For the mid-sized seller the DSR became the tool of choice. The powers that be raised the level of what is a good seller artificially high. No manipulation is required; they know exactly the effect of the policy. This is why buyers are told that 4 is a good score and sellers are told that 4.9 yields discounts and higher listing placements. As long as that fractured point of view exists, eBay does not need to interfere with the DSR as has been suggested, the buyers will be killing the sellers naturally.
By August there will be no pretense and the intentions of the new and improved eBay will be clear. The following is only a partial list of the rules that will be imposed. It comes from a memo that circulated within my corner of the managerial department the week before Chicago. I cannot be too specific about certain items and I cannot reveal details of the latest additions without endangering my anonymity.
1. Neutrals will be converted to negatives complete with red icons and reduced feedback scores. Afterward neutrals will not be offered as a choice of feedback.
2. The entire process of feedback will be automated. Buyers and sellers will chose standard feedback from a list. For sellers this operation will be performed automatically upon the buyer winning. For buyers there will be an extra free line with which to add a few comments about the seller without restriction to content. Replies will not be allowed.
3. The implementation of a stricter rules regarding shipping. From the boxes, packing, labels and tapes to where you can buy postage. Orders have been placed for prototypes of “eBay” boxes. UPS and FedEx will be instructed not to accept “eBay” merchandise if it’s not inside “eBay” boxing. They will know, of course, because when sellers buy the “eBay” postage from the “eBay” source, a detailed list of contents with item numbers will be available to the shippers upon scanning a bar code. As for those who continue to use USPS, another level of quality control will be implemented – buyers will be asked, upon confirmation of delivery, if the seller used “eBay” standard shipping items. Naturally, no verification of the buyer’s truthfulness will be attempted, and continued ‘infractions’ will result in suspension. eBay will have other ways to check if a seller is not using the “eBay” equipment – as they will be required to buy at cost the supplies immediately after items are listed. (This is such a large scale operation behind the scenes that I feel comfortable sharing as much of it as I know.)
4. Sales taxes will be included automatically; shipping cost and sales taxes will be used to determined FVF.
5. Item descriptions will be “standardized” with templates which include the posting of a new, universal return policy. Only yearly subscribers to the retail-outlet venue can opt out of these universal return policies but even they cannot alter the template structures being devised.
6. Strikes against buyers will be eliminated as the whole concept of a buyer and bidding will be altered. FVF will be calculated when payment is submitted.
7. Time to Close will be eliminated entirely. Best Match will be the non-alterable default. Best Match is a system that caters to the needs of shoppers not bidders.
8. Placement within Best Match will be determined by several factors, the most important of which will be the extra display features added onto the listing.
9. DSRs can be removed by retailers and powersellers who pay a certain yearly fee.
10. The end play itself which consists of four phases:
a) the main focus shifts to retail sellers whose fees are on a per listing basis
b) stores will be replaced by a classified section, fees will be based on yearly subscriptions and FVFs
c) occasional auctions will be conducted for unique items (celebrity auctions, items that have been featured on the news, etc.)
d) total elimination of auctions for regular sellers.
From the point of view of eBay’s agenda to change gears these alteration make sense. The powers that be want to turn eBay into a retail venue format. Therefore the “buyer” must be changed – bidding and commitments to buy are part of the past. In a retail venue, the item is either in your cart or not and you only commit to buy when you pay at checkout. The seller is also redefined in the way they will be required to do business. They will be forced to copy the methods of retail stores.
The goal is to become Amazon Lite. Unlike Amazon the merchandise will be stocked by the retailers in their warehouses, eBay will be just an electronic centralized venue for outlet sale – a “trusted” name with a wide customer base and popular name recognition.
That is the future and as I write this I know that it cannot be stopped. There are no investors with enough clout and will to challenge the CEO. Stock holders will simply walk away. eBay will not sink, however, it will be exactly in the position its rulers intend it to be at.
Sellers, my advice is simple. You are not wanted. Leave. If you stay, you will be crushed. Leave. Go away. You cannot win.
I am sorry because for too long I have been a complicit tool behind the scenes. I was part of those teams and think tanks that spearheaded many of the “innovations” you know very well and which will be used to destroy you. I know I will not be believed. I will be mocked and ridiculed by the tools and even those who are real, actual people will be hesitant to accept what I have to say. What has been done to this community, the plots and schemes hatched in meetings and across memos, is far, far worse to endure within my soul than any treatment I will receive at the hands of the tools by posting this. You do not know how much they hate you. It is my conscience that I want to clear going forward. Again I apologize. There should have been a better way for the powers that be to effect the change they wanted for eBay – instead they succumbed to cloak and dagger deception.
RIP eBay
* Posted by: Misty on July 4, 2008 1:25 PM
A few months ago, someone hacked into my paypal account and made a payment to a company I had never heard of.
As an IT professional, my system is as secure as it can be, so I am confident that the breach occurred elsewhere.
I have no trust for Paypal, and will never use them again as a seller. I would rather stop using ebay altogether
* Posted by: Geoff on July 4, 2008 1:26 PM
The answer is to get behind OZtion (www.oztion.com.au). It's Australian, it's cheaper than eBay and it's not flooded with 99c cent items plus $30 postage from China.
* Posted by: Brad Peterson on July 4, 2008 1:26 PM
Hi Asher, many thanks for your attention to these issues! You've hit the nail on the head regarding the following:
eBays policy prevents sellers discouraging one method of payment over another... fair enough... So how is it that they allow (and recommend) a 'Paypal Preferred' logo to be prominently displayed in listings but do NOT allow the same for Direct Deposit, Money Orders or any other form of payment method. In fact, they REMOVE listings if a seller states other method preferred! It would appear that what is good for the goose is definitely NOT good for the gander!
There is definitely also a problem with Paypal option being displayed so prominently in checkout - it takes up SO much of the screen that it appears it is the only way you can pay...
* Posted by: K C on July 4, 2008 1:35 PM
Support OZtion. Ebay can go to hell!
* Posted by: Amber on July 4, 2008 1:35 PM
EBay must be a little concerned about the negative publicity. I just posted a link to this article on their message boards and they deleted it after about 5 minutes.
Here's a hint eBay - if you don't want to look bad in the press try behaving with a little integrity and treat your customers with respect rather than like a piece of dog shit.
* Posted by: Maureen on July 4, 2008 1:35 PM
I use eBay to sell stuff that is too good to bin and too good to give to Vinnies, but is just unwanted clutter. Most of it is not something that folk would knock down your door to get - it generally all sells for less than $20-. Paying a listing fee as well as a percentage of the final price sometimes meant that the whole exercise ( photographing the item, describing the item, calculating postage for interested parties, etc.) would nett me as little as 5c or even a small loss. I could reconcile my disappointment with the fact that the item was not going to landfill and had found a use again.
Now with PayPal being pushed to buyers and another percentage of the TOTAL ( item and postage and packing ) cost taken, plus another fee to move the money from PayPal to my bank account, it is becoming rediculously expensive for me to continue this practice. The other option is to inflate my start price - resulting in more eBay fees and a much greater chance of no-one bidding at all.
Bring back the old system!
If they continue with the changes I will go to Oztion.com.au, although it is not global at least the fees are realistic.
* Posted by: JB on July 4, 2008 1:40 PM
I have been an eBay buyer for over a decade, and have had a PayPal
account for nearly as long. I closed my PayPal account on the 15 June 2008 after the frustrations of trying to complete an eBay auction
using their system.
My credit card number had recently changed and PayPal would not allow
me to change the number on the card because it was based in Australia
and they perceived that my account was based in the UK, despite the
fact that I had no UK GBP-denominated accounts. My account had
originally been opened in the USA during a period when I was a working
resident of the USA. I had both USD and AUD accounts registered with
PayPal in order to minimize exchange rate costs.
After much to-and-fro in email with their support staff, they
requested that I call them in the UK (at international rates) to
resolve the problem. They couldn't explain why I had to call the UK,
and didn't offer any local communication method. The support requests
lodged on the matter were coded C826-L003-T11074-S111-W000000 and
C826-L003-T11029-S111-W000000.
If I was simply dealing with my (Australian) bank then I could quickly
deal with any issues with a local call or a trip to my local bank
branch. If I was dissatisfied, I could simply open an account with
another bank. Under eBay's proposal I am stuck with trying to deal
with support staff in another country who seem to wilfully ignore
every supplied detail of a support issue.
* Posted by: Mike on July 4, 2008 1:46 PM
Yes, Go to Oztion.
As a seller I have already and I am starting to get sales but this will only work if many are willing to change so get off your arses and use the free market.
* Posted by: YeahYeah on July 4, 2008 2:00 PM
E bay pulled all my listings WITH BIDS because I put "any buyer wishing to use Pay Pal as their payment method, must pay the extra fee's charged to the seller"
They did not pull the listings without bids but I did receive an e mail instructing me to alter my other listings otherwise I would be stopped from selling"
* Posted by: Tom on July 4, 2008 2:00 PM
There are many many stories of dissatisfaction with ebay and paypal.
I posted a link to this blog on ebays message boards and it has been deleted. Is censorship the Australian way - I think not!
If there was so many people happily and safely using paypal then where are they hiding? Ebay would be spruiking them all over town if they could find any.
* Posted by: KW on July 4, 2008 2:02 PM
LOOK OUT EBAY - SMARTBID AUCTIONS IS REAL COMPETITION!!! ebay members have and will continue to move to other auction sites that offer a fresh approach. I have Registered at Oztion, the Trading Post and the newest site which seems to beat them all which is www.smartbid.com.au - Smart Bid Auctions have some very innovative things on offer and they opened 1 July 2008. ebay will no longer have the lions share of the market as the competition eats away at their business.
* Posted by: Ken on July 4, 2008 2:03 PM
Interesting indeed well I must say I never used ebay for buying or selling so if it decides it wants to be a cheap version of Amazon I'm not bothered. However as for PayPal I hate them with a passion and will never ever use them again. They owe me $45 for a refund I was given for a faulty product I purchsed from Catch of the Day website. After numerous phones calls and emails I gave up I was beaten into submission and I waved the flight flag to tired and frustrated to bother anymore. So the next time a website uses Paypal for payment I shall simply cancel the transaction.
* Posted by: Phil on July 4, 2008 2:07 PM
The ACCC draft ruling states : 5.173 The evidence available does not support the view that PayPal is the most secure
method of payment, or offers the best service for all transactions.
Yet ebay uses every means possible to persuade a buyer into using paypal however should I say in my ebay listing that I prefer bank transfer ebay will remove my listing.
A visitor to the site is bombarded with banner ads and flash animations showing the virtues of paypal as well as pages on the site like Paying Confidently http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/tp/payment-ov.html or Trading Safely http://pages.ebay.com.au/education/learn-to-buy-safely.html
which show the only one payment method which - paypal.
The ACCC draft ruling shows this is clearly a deception.
I fear that this deception will only get worse with ebay using it's web site with maximum effect as marketing tool to hoodwink and bamboozle users.
eBay must not be allowed to insist that sellers offer paypal as a payment option
Please write the ACCC voicing your concerns http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/54217
* Posted by: ebayRdecetive on July 4, 2008 2:12 PM
PayPal is my preferred method of doing online business with anyone. It is safe and secure and I don't have to give my bank account details out to anyone. I hope eBay continue to enforce its use as I wouldn't deal with anyone on eBay any other way but through PayPal.
* Posted by: grand trunk on July 4, 2008 2:14 PM
I had a listing cancelled last night.
It was pick up only and cash on pick up no paypal.
Listing was cancelled in 30 minutes, email from ebay saying you cant not put you accept Paypal then put cash on pick up.
YOU CAN NOT list with out paypal so how can any one do this.
Ebay have me over a barrel and I can not list any more because I do not want to join Paypal
So with feed back of 1862 and have been a member for 6 years this is how I am treated.
If you would like a copy of ebays email I can send it to you.
* Posted by: Alisia on July 4, 2008 2:16 PM
PAyPal are a real pain. Added some money to make a purchase in the U.S.
The money was gone from the bank account on the same day. PayPal took 8 days for it to show in the account. Then as it was converted to U.S.$ the exchange rate was much lower than the ACTUAL rate. So they not only made me wait for MY money but also made a profit from the conversion.
They should be made to sign the EFT code of conduct. At the moment they do just as they please---- with eBay's help. We as sellers have no choice.Contrary to the ACCC ruling, eBay still push the line that PayPal is the "safest" method of payment. They do NOT mention it is also the most expensive
* Posted by: glasseyoz on July 4, 2008 2:25 PM
The continuous advertising of products including PAYPAL make me sick to the stomach! Everytime I log into MY EBAY, I am bombarded with products I have no interest in not to mention a bunch of people with sexual inuendo saying how protected they are in using PAYPAL! What a laugh! I have never met an organisation who has blatantly flouted their rules down our throats & stating...it's all for the good of the people...what a whole load of crock...how? My business (like others) was killed within a week of the feedback changes not to mention having being forced to use PAYPAL in all of my listings which gives me a profit of zilch! Surely if the majority are saying...NO...then something is not quite right? I don't have a degree in business but I'm sure this isn't the way to run one. I think EBAY's management have a lot to answer for!
* Posted by: Sonia on July 4, 2008 2:26 PM
Papyal are not a member of the EFT and they and eBay pay NO TAXES in Australia. Can you find out why they are exempt?
* Posted by: A Powell on July 4, 2008 2:33 PM
Ebay did it for Security my eye ! it was a grab at extra money through fee's ! if they were serious why don't they apply the 100 point identification system most honest companies use ????? Yeh ebad that's what I thought !!
* Posted by: Pdm on July 4, 2008 2:34 PM
Dear "Ms Tiffany Zaporowski" On behalf of myself and everyone else who has had a problem with with your company may I say a hearty "Ha Ha Ha Hee Hee Hee Ho Ho Ho" to your suggestion that Paypal are readily approachable and easy to contact with problems. From my experience it would be easier to climb Mt Everest in Speedos and thongs. They are dreadful to deal with things go wrong , arbitrary,secretive, and downright dishonest when it suits them.
* Posted by: robh on July 4, 2008 2:35 PM
The act of ebay forcing people to offer Paypal, contravenes the trade practices act. It's a practice know as "third line forcing".... http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/816377
"Third line forcing is a specific form of exclusive dealing prohibited outright by the Trade Practices Act. It is not subject to the substantial lessening of competition test. It involves the supply of goods or services on condition that the purchaser buys goods or services from a particular third party, or a refusal to supply because the purchaser will not agree to that condition."
* Posted by: AJL on July 4, 2008 2:43 PM
I would also like to add my view about Ebay and the way you are not allowed to determine which form of payment you wish to use... They now force you to put Paypal on your listing - also you are not allowed to have a choice of which form of Paypal you wish to be paid, you have to be at the hands of the buyer. I prefer bank to bank which is free for both buyer and seller , but not allowed to request this or they will deregister me. Also, once you have used up the six credit card payments you are automatically transfered to an account that is use by professional sellers . even if you are private - and the problem now with it being forced down your throat you will soon be up and over your quota. I have now left as I find their attitude just too much to bear with all the rules with the threat of being evicted - they have been able to get away in the past with this undercover but now its all be brought into the open (which I imagine they regret) many people have been abused by them but because they fear being evicted have had to back down ... Just pleased Australia have showm them up for what they are . Crooks
ONE LAST POINT , I HAVE HEARD FROM A FRIEND WHO WORKS AT A POST OFFICE IN MELBOURNE, HER TAKINGS HAVE DROPPED OVER $3500 A MONTH AS MANY HAVE JUST STOPPED SELLING ON EBAY SO DONT POST ANYMORE THINGS OUT
* Posted by: david on July 4, 2008 2:54 PM
I want eBay to REVERSE their STUPID FEEDBACK Policy, SELLERS can no longer reply to Buyers with Negative or Neutral feedback, only Positive or None, So a Seller has to cop whatever the Buyer says or wants or does not pay or short pays, or says they did not get the goods when they have.
Long term Sellers are leaving eBay in their Hundreds every week!..
FIX IT eBay! REVERSE THE FEEDBACK DISASTER.
* Posted by: Ash on July 4, 2008 2:57 PM
Paypal is a rort.
Ebay should not force people to offer paypal and if a user wants to use it, it should be user pays. This is a similar policy to registered post, if you want to use that privilege then you pay an additional fee. I recently listed some of my children’s clothing on ebay for sale. The item of clothing sold for $1.99. The ebay fees were about $1.20 and then the buyer used paypal and I was slugged another 50 cents as paypal also makes profit on the postage you charged. I tried listing a few items asking the user to pay an extra 50 cents if they choose to use paypal to assist with the added costs to the seller. Ebay pulled my items from auction and said that I can't introduce new charges, but isn’t that exactly what they are doing. Ebay suggested that my item pricing should cover all my costs and therefore ebay want me to build the price of paypal into the item. So now every ebayer buyer weither they use paypal or not, will be slugged for using it. That's not fair either. I bet if I offered a discount for not using paypal, my adds would still be pulled. The ACCC need to step in and not only force ebay to stop making paypal the only payment method, but stop ebay making paypal compulsory on all listings. My family has bought and sold on ebay for years and have over 150 positive feedbacks and never once have we come across an issue where we wished we had paid for it by paypal.
Paypal compulsion must be scrapped!
* Posted by: Joe on July 4, 2008 3:02 PM
Two months back when i wanted to post an item up on ebay i did not tick paypal as one of the payment accepted and they forced me to do so if not my item wont be posted up. So I posted the item and stated I preferred bank deposit as Paypal deducts a fee, my listing got cancelled and my account banned! I was so frustrated and stopped using ebay!
EBAY SUCKS!
* Posted by: Jase on July 4, 2008 3:02 PM
PAYPAL Is the most insecure and risky of all transactors in the marketplace. For the sake of consumer chargebacks, you place your privacy, identity and finances at risk with absolutely no redress against Paypal.
Paypal is not an EFT Code signatory, and as such, they can suspend accounts, remove funds without authority, and chargeback items without due process being entered into.
Indeed, Paypal’s User Agreement removes them from all liability for account takeover, theft, fraud, or consumer disputes against Paypal itself, transferring all liability back onto the account holder. By comparison there are at least 70 or more alternative transactors who provide Consumer Protection under the EFT Code, and who are arguably much safer for Australian consumers.
For Ebay to be arguing otherwise, even by implication, places unnecessary suspicion and confusion, over well established and trusted Australian transaction entities.
I would argue that Paypal offer Nil Consumer protection and should sign the EFT Code of conduct, if it intends to continue to promote it’s product as ‘Safer’ than established Australian EFT code signatories. Otherwise, Ebay is deliberately misleading the Australian Public.
Ebay members generally, and Paypl customers in particular, are the target of major fraud and identity theft Worldwide with regular phishing emails being directed at Ebay members specifically. Even if you don’t have a Paypal account, you will still be targeted as an Ebay member. I don’t have a Paypal account and yet I've received hundreds of these emails over the years. By comparison I’ve only ever had one email masquerading as the CBA in 7 years.
Ebay and Paypal are aware of this targeted fraud, and I would suggest that this is why they won’t sign the EFT code of conduct. If they were to do so, they would need to put safeguards in place to prevent account takeovers or compensate consumers whose accounts are taken over or identity stolen. They would also then be required to cease freezing accounts, removing account holder funds, suspending accounts, or charging back payments, without redress to the account holder.
* Posted by: Lynne on July 4, 2008 3:04 PM
paypal is a superb option. Guarentees verified bank accounts and direct transfer within 24 hours. No dodgy credit card issues. I have nothing but good things to say - stop whinging - whats a fee or two to guarentee an international, fraud-free transaction...?
* Posted by: Simon on July 4, 2008 3:10 PM
If eBay were concerned about fraud protection, they would have more than a literal handful of people in Canada looking at *all* Australian transactions. eBay has been, and is, woefully understaffed in the area of fraud and dispute resolution, instead preferring to corral people into their way of doing things and deleting the accounts and freezing money of "troublemakers".
BTW, I am ex-ACCC and agree wholeheartedly with their decision. There are virtually no merits to eBay's claim in my opinion.
* Posted by: mr_wowtrousers on July 4, 2008 3:10 PM
Ebay.com.au are even blocking listings from sellers in the US who do not offer paypal. If I go to their US listing directly on ebay.com, I am blocked from bidding, as I am in Australia! Isn't this international restraint of trade? Just how greedy can a company be? They came from nowhere to be world dominant, and they still want more. I just hope now that their greed has taken them beyond the point of diminishing returns. They have certainly given Oztion a nice boost. haha
* Posted by: Phil Georges on July 4, 2008 3:11 PM
Good point about the fact that eBay is still forcing sellers to offer Paypal as an option and to me that's almost the same as being forced to offer it as the only option. I just can't be bothered to go through the hassle of all this. As a small-time seller, it's off to Oztion or Vinny's, maybe I'll even check out Trading Post's new auction system since I was told T Post was the way to go in the good old classified days.
* Posted by: NS on July 4, 2008 3:18 PM
As a buyer I love paypal. Its easy, all I have to do is click a couple of buttons & enter a password & its paid. No hassle, no risk & a way to come back at a seller who cons me.
Once I purchased an item, what they sent me was nothing like what I had paid for & paypal returned my money, no hassles.
Sure, as a seller I bet you dont like it but as a buyer, its paypal all the way for me.
I LOVE this new policy, I can now shop on EBAY as much as I like hassle free...
* Posted by: Richard on July 4, 2008 3:20 PM
It's a nightmare trying to get money out of Paypal and transfer it to a bank account. If you don't withdraw a minimum of $150, Paypal charges you a fee.
God knows what Paypal does with all the funds it holds - most likely earning interest in the short-term money markets.
Australia is just a testing ground and soon they will unleash it on the other world eBay sites.
* Posted by: Bob on July 4, 2008 3:29 PM
Hey Simon @3.10pm - if PayPal is so good why do they refuse to be a signatory to the Electronic Funds Transfer Code of Conduct? This code of conduct amongst other things sets standards for complaints procedures and consumer protection.
The fact that eBay/Paypal refuses to be a signatory to the Code of Conduct demonstrates a lack of commitment to the standards and values that it (the Code) espouses.
* Posted by: Maureen Chuck on July 4, 2008 3:31 PM
A copy of my email sent today to the ACCC :
From: xxxx.xxxx [mailto:xxxx@iinet.net.au]
Sent: 04 July 2008 13:29
To: 'Roy, Lauren'
Subject: URGENT : eBay's Misleading Media Statements ( N93365 )
Hello Lauren,
I called your office this morning and left a message asking you to return my call.
As I wish to discuss the following issue I have decided to send you relevant information in the meantime.
I'm aware that ebay has withdrawn its notification and thus ebay has, for the time being, abandoned its plans to have PayPal as the only payment option available to users of ebay (i.e. stage 2 of the proposal).
However, the ACCC needs to be aware that since withdrawing its notification ebay Australia's chief executive, Mr Simon Smith, appears to be using the media to communicate misleading information to ebay users and consumers generally. The thrust of this misinformation is to convey to ebay users and consumers that the ACCC has formally endorsed stage 1 of the proposal, namely, that ebay sellers must offer PayPal as a payment option. My reading of the relevant correspondence to date is that the ACCC has issued no such endorsement.
The ACCC would appreciate that the effect of Mr Smith's media statement will be to encourage sellers to list items on ebay incorrectly believing that they must offer PayPal. Similarly, unknowing buyers may believe that they are required, or better off, applying for a PayPal account. Clearly, both of these activities benefit ebay financially so there would appear to be no incentive for ebay to correct the misinformation, and perhaps every incentive for ebay to perpetuate it further through the media and in direct communications to ebay sellers and buyers.
But just as importantly, with the withdrawal of ebay's notification, I am aware that many ebay users are now in the process of submitting formal complaints to the ACCC regarding stage 1 of ebay's proposal (together with complaints about other anti-competitive practices). With the above described misinformation in the market place some members may incorrectly conclude that the ACCC has endorsed stage 1 of the proposal and that submitting complaints relating to this now serve no purpose. I am sure that the ACCC would see this as an unfortunate and undesirable outcome of Mr Smith's campaign of spreading misinformation.
Therefore, as a matter of urgency, I respectfully request the ACCC to investigate this matter and to take prompt action in the form of the ACCC releasing a clear media statement of its position on stage 1 of the proposal and ensuring that ebay, and Mr Smith in particular, desists from perpetuating misinformation and issues a correcting media statement in which the wording has been agreed prior by the ACCC. Further, it would seem entirely appropriate for ebay to be required to promptly correct the various announcements and pop-up messages on its web site that presently serve to perpetuate the misinformation. Ebay's continued and underhanded efforts to circumvent Australian consumer protection legislation are reprehensible and must be stopped.
I have attached a link to an example of the offending media communications. I draw your attention to the following extract :
"eBay Australia’s chief executive Simon Smith said the company was pleased the ACCC accepted one part of the project: the requirement for all eBay sellers to offer PayPal as a payment option".
http://www.thesheet.com/nl05_news_selected.php?act=2&stream=1&selkey=6838&hlc=2&hlw=
Thank you in anticipation.
Yours sincerely
xxxxxx
* Posted by: RV on July 4, 2008 3:34 PM
BEING A ONE PARENT FAMILY, I HAVE BUILT A BUSINESS UP OVER THE LAST 6 YEARS TO HELP WITH MY FAMILIES COSTS. EBAY HAVE CHOSEN THE WORST TIME I WOULD IMAGINE FOR MANY TO BRING ABOUT THE CHANGES, WITH THE ECONOMIC CLIMATE NOW CAUSING A LOT OF PEOPLE FINDING IT HARD TO PAY THEIR MORTGAGE AND BUY FOOD AND PAY THEIR EVERYDAY COSTS , I HAVE HAD TO CLOSE DOWN MY BUSINESS DUE TO LACK OF SALES. I AM NOT PREPARED TO JUST PAY THE COST OF LISTINGS WITH NO SALES, AS MOST OF MY BUYERS WERE YOUNG MUMS WHO WOULDNT KNOW HOW TO JOIN PAYPAL OR WANT TO . . THANK YOU EBAY YOU HAVE JUST DESTROY EVERYTHING I HAVE WORKED TO ACHIEVED OVER THE LAST SIX YEARS.
* Posted by: MARGARET on July 4, 2008 3:37 PM
Hey Simon, That is Simon FROM ebay isn't it Hahaha It certainly sounds like the disingenuous garbage we have been hearing from Simon FROM ebay!!
Look people!! Simon's found his voice again!! Hahaha
* Posted by: Di Keller on July 4, 2008 3:44 PM
Since moving to NZ I've realised how little clout eBay actually has on a global scale. From what I can see online auction houses are going back to grassroots level. Everyone here uses TradeMe, and it's fantastic - eBay doesn't even register in NZ.
* Posted by: Tom on July 4, 2008 3:44 PM
I refuse to use paypal and ebay forcing it is not providing consumers or sellers with options. I have always paid by direct deposit and have never had a problem. It's my preferred method of payment and if ebay does go to paypal only, it will be bye bye ebay. I'm sure plenty of others will follow and maybe oztion will become the new ebay!!! Best of luck to the ACCC to thwart ebays changes.
* Posted by: Cindy on July 4, 2008 3:50 PM
eBay should be prosecuted for misleading and deceptive conduct for the never ending in your face claims that PayPal is "safer". The ACCC concluded in the draft norification "The evidence available does not support the view that PayPal is the most secure method of payment, or offers the best service for all transactions."
Allowing (actually encouraging) the use of its own "PayPal preferred" icon but prohibiting sellers to nominate any other payment method as "preferred" is anti-competitive.
It is bizarre that PayPal is even allowed to hold an Australian Financial Services Licence when it refuses to sign the Electronic Funds Transfer Code of Conduct. Australian banks should refuse to transfer money to or from PayPal until it signs the EFT Code.
* Posted by: Amber on July 4, 2008 3:53 PM
Paypal...protection?? Yeah right!
I had a buyer who paid through Paypal. They claimed that they did not receive the item and lodged a claim with Paypal. They could provide no proof. I provided proof of postage. What did Paypal do? They took the money off me and gave it back to them! Great protection...NOT! Guess what happens when you try to dispute their rulings.....NO RESPONSE!! You don't have to be a genius to realise that they are the biggest scammers of all! Can't somebody give us somesort of protection against Paypal? That would actually be worth paying for!
* Posted by: Peter on July 4, 2008 3:59 PM
I find it amazing that a company as successful as E-Bay is so out of tune with its customers. Forget about trade practices - they are displaying pure arrogance. It's the kind of behaviour that allows a competitor to take awy their business. How could they be so stupid?
* Posted by: Andrew Stapleton on July 4, 2008 4:04 PM
I URGE all sellers to do the following in regard to the disgraceful anti-choice strategies being perpetrated by ebay
1) No matter what ebay demands, continue to state that paypal is not a preferred payment option in your auction description.
2) Refer every grievance about ebay's actions in to the administrators via their (pathetic) contact procedure.
3) Voice your objections to the ACCC
4) Alert buyers to the aggressive and monopolistic behaviour of ebay.
By telling buyers your grievances you will be hitting ebay where it hurts most.
5) Sell through another auction site (there are many other cheaper options available to Australian sellers) Many buyers don't really care, or spend time worrying over an issue that isn't a burden if they are not also a seller. Unless buyers AND sellers together pressure ebay to change their behaviour, they will continue to do as they wish with impunity.
* Posted by: J.Vasey on July 4, 2008 4:19 PM
As a frequent seller on ebay - I am in favour of the "paypal only" policy. Sure, there are charges involved, but for the security and simplicity of all my sales being on paypal - it would streamline transactions. Bank deposits are fine - but are not instant, which delays the shipping - and Money Orders are a cost to the buyer and take even longer, and are often inconvenient for sellers.
I wish more noise was made about the "no negative feedback from sellers" policy, that was introduced last month.
* Posted by: Kuz on July 4, 2008 4:38 PM
One thing that is not widely understood is that Paypal is not safe for buyers either.
I had a situation where paypal took the money from the wrong account.
I ended up going to the financial services ombudsman and Paypal did a pretty good job of ignoring the complaint.
Paypal is not subject to any legal regulation while having unrestricted access to buyers bank accounts.
That is a pretty scary thing to realise.
* Posted by: davidb on July 4, 2008 4:39 PM
Yes we all know who you are . cut the crap Simon on July 4, 2008 3:10 PM and Richard
Dont expect Aussies to roll over and play dead to your money grabbing schemes - do the funky Gibbon it should be Ebay's theme song AHAHAHAHAH
* Posted by: MARY on July 4, 2008 4:41 PM
Safety of PayPal??!!??
Here is on person's experience:
www.audiolifeportrait.com/paypal.aspx
One of eBay's claims about PayPal is that you don't have to share financial information. Of all of the customers who have paid meby direct deposit or money order, not one of them has had to tell me their bank details.
Cheers, 'audiolifeportraits'
* Posted by: Tony Hunt on July 4, 2008 4:45 PM
eBay are profiteering and there's no excuse. Thank goodness someone somewhere took the issue to ACCC and that they're acting on it. IMHO eBay have lost it and there are any number of competitors waiting in the wings to take their business. I'm certainly looking for alternatives. And yes, getting your money back through PayPal is a nightmare - just doesn't happen. I've had some bad experiences just recently but eBay and PayPal don't seem to do anything about it. Disgusted.
* Posted by: Wozzie109 on July 4, 2008 5:01 PM
To Amber on July 4, 2008 3:53 PM, there is a very strong rumour that at least one Australian bank is going to take legal action against PayPal for withdrawing money from accounts without approval.
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