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A vain attempt at decrazification.

Stephen Hawking receives some directives from the dead Pope.Jul. 26, 2006

Not in a John Edwards way though; the guy was alive at the time. I saw this USA Today article a few weeks ago and it gave me a right good laugh. Stephen Hawking recalls a conversation he had with the late Pope; according to Stephen, the Pope had this to say:


"It's OK to study the universe and where it began. But we should not inquire into the beginning itself because that was the moment of creation and the work of God."


I find this funny for several reasons, and it raises some interesting questions. First, had the Pope given up hope that scientists would find evidence for the existence of God? This sounds like a plea for scientists not to shatter his silly delusions. It reminds me of people who refuse to discuss their religious beliefs with an atheist. There are a couple of these ‘finger in ears, LA LA LA LA LA, not listening’ types in my group of friends. My question is: why would you not want to discuss it if you believe it to be true? This says to me that, at some level, you already know it’s bullshit, but avoid thinking about it too much as this childish rubbish makes you feel better. If so, I find this attitude to be absolutely abhorrent. Here’s a quote Carl Sagan used in his book ‘The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark’ (a book that should be required reading for all human children):


“It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so long as it makes you feel good, as it is not to care how you got your money so long as you have got it.”

Edmund Way Teale


I don’t think I agree that it’s morally wrong, but I certainly think it’s infantile and pathetic.


Second, what’s he worried about? Nobody in our increasingly vacuous culture listens to scientists anyway. I would have thought evolution (which, credit to him, JP acknowledged as true) is much more of a hit to religion than the big bang, but it doesn’t seem to have done much harm, despite being supported by mountains upon mountains of evidence. Lots of people still believe that Adam and Eve bullshit though.


Third, who the fuck do you think you are telling scientists what they should and shouldn’t study? You insane, silly hat wearing, sanctimonious twit. And people call atheists and skeptics arrogant; unbelievable. The Pope’s statement is exactly the same as an astrologer telling scientists not to study planetary mechanics because the magic of astrology is at work. Preposterous. Your contention that the universe was created by God is a hypothesis and one that requires some pretty solid evidence before it will be believed by intelligent people. Currently, (like astrology) there is not a single shred of evidence that your God exists. Its existence (also like astrology) defies logic and all the evidence currently available. In a word, you are wrong; God does not exist. Get over it.


In the article, Hawking made a joke about Galileo and the inquisition (he just loves to play up that birthday connection, doesn’t he?) which lead us to another quote from John Paul, regarding his recent pardoning of Galileo:


“…Pope John Paul II issued a declaration saying the church's denunciation of Galileo was an error resulting from "tragic mutual incomprehension."”


Tragic mutual incomprehension? Wow, what a load of shit, and a fantastic apology considering it was nearly four hundred years in the making. The religious authorities of the time persecuted a guy because he dared to question their (utterly wrong) dogmatic teachings, based on actual evidence he had collected. Where’s the mutual incomprehension? The only incomprehension here is on the part of the religious authorities and their complete incomprehension of reality. This kind of silliness has been happening throughout history. A few examples: first, according to the Bible, the religious argued the earth was flat; wrong. Those passages are now ignored and don’t mean what they used to mean (although there still exists a Flat Earth Society who continue to use the same arguments. No shit). Next, they argued, based on scriptural literalism, that the sun revolves around the earth; wrong. Those passages are now ignored. We’ve also seen the same arguments regarding slavery. Those passages are now ignored. The contemporary example is that of gay marriage. People argue, based on their stupid book, that being gay is wrong, so equal rights should be denied that minority community. No doubt, in time, reality will wash over these morons again and those passages will be ignored also. Why can’t we just skip to the chase and throw the useless book out and be done with it? It would just save us so much time, and the world would be a much better place.

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Untitled CommentJul. 26, 2006
At last...:) It's been a long time coming but as usual, another cracker Adam.

It almost makes you wonder why the Vatican maintains an astronomer and a pretty good one too http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/R1024/GConsolmagno.html

He doesn't seem to go much for intelligent design either. http://www.astrobio.net/news/article1716.html
Posted by plonka

View from the other sideJul. 27, 2006
Francis S. Collins, the leader of the US Government'sHuman Genome Project, says God is ``the greatestscientists there is''
Inb his book ``The Language of God: A ScientistPresents Evidence for Belief'', he describes his ownconversion and the logic behind his beliefs - all thewhile respecting evidence for Darwinian evolution, theBig Bang and an earth that is billions of years old. Dr.Collins' book encourages scientists to explore religion,and religious people to explore science.
He did a recent interview in which he explained hisphilosophy/

Q: You've spoken about your faith before. Whatprompted you to write this book?
A: I had been increasingly concerned aboutpolarization between those who hold the scientific andspiritual worldviews. There are colleagues in myscientific circle who assert that evolution means thatGod is no longer necessary, and that the onlyintellectually satisfying choice for a scientist is tobe an atheist. On the other side, we have voices comingfrom a conservative religious perspective who challengewhether science is trustworthy.
Q: You make the case that belief in God is rational.If that's true, why are so many scientists skeptics?
A: Scientists are trained to be skeptical of anythingyou can't demonstrate without data. It may be difficultfor them, therefore, to accept the fact that this is notnecessarily the right way to approach questions like,``Is there a God?''
If God exists, he must be outside of nature. And inthat regard, science doesn't really provide you with thetools necessary to discover him.
Q: Do you think there's peer pressure not to beovertly religious?
A: There's an unstated taboo in the scientificcommunity about discussing religion. Some youngscientists get the sense that if they do talk aboutreligion they might be considered intellectually soft.
Q: What about religious people who can't acceptevolution?
A: Many who have been raised in conservative religioushouseholds and who have been taught to interpret Genesisas literal truth are very hung up on what science tellsus about the age of the earth, the relatedness ofspecies and the process of evolution. In manyevangelical churches, you see a strong embrace of``intelligent design'' as an opportunity, basically, tofight back against Darwin.
For me, there is really no conflict here - if Godchose to use the mechanism of evolution to createcreatures in his image, who are we to say that's not howwe would have done it?
Q: You were once a skeptic. What was the biggesthurdle you had to clear to accept a religious viewpoint?
A: Like many scientists, I was afflicted with themindset of reductionism: Anything worth understandingcan be understood by using the tools of science andbasic physical and mathematical principles. Also therewas an aspect of plain arrogance; I had developed such asense of being able to understand everything through myown intellect that it wasn't necessary to contemplatethe fact that there might be mysteries beyond that.Those things together led me in my 20s to be a prettyobnoxious atheist.
Q: You're a Christian, but as a geneticist andbiologist, how do you account for miracles like theVirgin Birth and the Resurrection?
A: I have no problem accepting that miracles canoccur. Here's the logic: As soon as you accept thepossibility that God exists and is outside of nature,then there is no reason why a supernatural being couldnot, on occasion, stage an invasion of the naturalworld.
Q: What do you make of the recent study from DukeUniversity that found that intercessory prayer had noeffect on health? That was an attempt to put prayer to atest.
A: I have to say, this whole area of research strikesme as odd.
Prayer is our opportunity to try to get intocommunication with God to better understand his will forour lives, not an occasion to manipulate his plans.
Q: So you don't see prayer as asking for favors? A lotof people do.
A: This is perhaps an unfortunate aspect ofChristianity - that prayer is presented as your way ofgetting what you want, that by just figuring out theright words to say to God, you can somehow convince himto do something that he wasn't really planning to do.
I think prayer is a conversation ... I don't thinkit's a way of bargaining with God.
Q: What do you recommend for believers who want tolearn more about science?
A: I think believers ought to be in the forefront ofthose trying to understand scientific advances and toparticipate in those advances. It would be dangerous forour future for believers to decide that science isuntrustworthy and that they should avoid exposure to it.
You know, if God is the author of truth, we should notbe afraid to seek that truth, wherever it leads us. Youcan find God in the cathedral, or you can find him inthe laboratory. He's the greatest scientist there is.He's the author of it all.
Q: What do you recommend for scientists who want toexplore religion more?
A: They can reach out and find that there are manyothers who are like-minded, if they can only tap intothe right network. There is an organization, theAmerican Scientific Affiliation, which is a group ofscientists from multiple disciplines who are seriousChristians. They meet annually and publish a journal.
The choice about belief in God is the most importantdecision anyone makes. If you're earnestly seeking him,obviously much of it has to begin by reading more abouthim.
-
Posted by BryanP

BITJul. 27, 2006
Yay! You're back! Great article, too. You built up gradually and then let rip.

Pity JP II is dead.

Bryan P's interview was interesting. Collins appears to have a very liberal and un-dogmatic view of Christian doctrine. A kind of God-as-the-silent-observer approach. A hardline protestant traditionalist approach.

His words on prayer were interesting - I personally thought that about 99.99% of prayers were requesting some intercessory favour of some sort, but then again, I've never really experienced a full-on prayer environment.

Gratuitous plug:

http://dikkiisdiatribe.blogspot.com/2006/07/how-exactly-does-prayer-work.html

Once again, good to have you back in the blogosphere, Adam.
Posted by dikkii

Untitled CommentJul. 27, 2006
Hi guys,

Thanks for your comments. I’ll try and keep the posts coming on a weekly basis from now on.

Ted.

I’m pretty sure I saw the Vatican’s astronomer on an ID documentary recently. I don’t think it was this guy though; unless he shaved his beard since those photos (or unless they have more than one astronomer). The guy I saw was very negative towards ID; more so even than this guy. These religious scientists, although no doubt more progressive and rationally inclined than their fundy cousins (and thus a vast improvement; if all religion was like this, we would have no problems at all), still give me the shits as they constantly try to assert the logic and rationality of their beliefs (and they tend to be damn good at obfuscation). Give it up fellas; you’re fooling nobody. I’ll address this more clearly in a new post in a couple of days. I want to talk at a bit more length about this guy, as well as this Collins fellow that Bryan has quoted. [BTW, I just replied to your month old message over Whitespace. Sorry it took so long. I only just got it]

Bryan.

Thanks for your comment. In one of those strange coincidences that happen from time to time (coincidences that people with no knowledge of probability or selective thinking often attribute to mystical sources), I just happened to be reading about Mr. Collins immediately prior to viewing your comment. Having read some of the more in-depth comments and arguments this guy has made, I’m afraid I have a much more negative opinion of him than I would have if I had only read the interview you provided (which wasn’t that bad). As I’ve said before, arguments from authority carry no weight whatsoever, whether they originate from a scientist or a priest. What we have to look at is their arguments. Are they logically consistent/fallacious? Do they provide any evidence to back up those arguments? According to Collins, he can provide such evidence. I’ll have a look at what he has to say (both from your interview and other sources) in a new post in the next few days.

Dikkii.

Thanks for the kind words. I’ve read your recent posts on prayer and the Mid-East crisis. In keeping with my recent laziness policy, I haven’t yet commented on them (or Ted’s most recent posts for that matter). Rest assured, I’ll be weighing in soon, especially on all this agnosticism/atheism business.

In the meantime, maybe Bryan can help you out with your question: “How exactly does prayer work?” My answer probably won’t help you much on your quest for enlightenment. Here’s exactly how it works: it doesn’t.

You also said: “Pity JP II is dead.”

Yes, I’m afraid that I, too, have little sympathy for the guy due to his despicable condom policy.
Posted by Adam

Untitled CommentJul. 28, 2006
That wasn't a bad interview Bryan posted.

If more exhibited that kind of rationale the debate I'm using as my premise probably wouldn't exist. Well, maybe not...
Posted by plonka

Untitled CommentApr. 5, 2008
fool
Posted by Anonymous

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