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| A vain attempt at decrazification. |
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In my post on Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort’s dishonest and ignorant ramblings, I mentioned they had produced a little booklet of tips for converting atheists. Some of that booklet can be found here (thanks Atheist Jew). Check it out, it’s most amusing. It would appear that Ray’s tips will not win you over with any atheist who knows their stuff, but make you look decidedly moronic and ignorant. As a service to any honest theists out there, I will point out a few reasons why. You can then tell this idiot to shut the hell up; he’s making you look bad (or worse perhaps).Ray begins with the ‘banana was designed by God for our consumption’ argument, which I’ve already covered. He then uses an oft quoted passage from Charles Darwin’s Origin of Species:
This passage is often used by creationists. What they always fail to mention is what follows: “If man cannot begin to make a human eye, how could anyone in his right mind think that eyes formed by mere chance? In fact, man cannot make anything from nothing. We don't know how to do it. We can re-create, reform, develop . . . but we cannot create even one grain of sand from nothing. Yet, the eye is only a small part of the most sophisticated part of creation-the human body.” Idiotic strawman – evolutionary theory does not say the eye formed by chance. Honestly, a ten year old could understand this stuff. We can’t make a human eye? True, but we can produce machines recreating its functions. Cameras, for instance, can work better than the human eye – they have a zoom function. What follows is even more perplexing; he seems to think that evolution, in forming the eye, created matter out of nothing in order to do so. Wow, that’s really, really, really fucking dumb. Ray then uses two more quotes to back up his position; one from George Gallop, who demonstrates his idiocy and ignorance, and one from Albert Einstein. Granted, Einstein often used peculiar language prone to misinterpretation, but he did not believe in a personal God. Here are a couple of quotes, whereby Einstein definitively states his position:
Ouch Ray, now that’s gotta hurt! Here’s the lesson: if you’re going to use arguments from authority (fallacious anyway), it might be a good idea to find out what that authority really thinks, or you risk looking a tad silly (or sillier, but that’s hardly possible with this idiot). Ray then takes it upon himself to redefine the term 'atheist' as someone who has a positive belief that there is no God (strong atheism), rather than someone who simply does not believe in God. So Ray, how is strong atheism less reasonable than belief in God? It's a much more reasonable position, given the evidence and the findings of science. He feels that strong atheism is an unreasonable position because: "Let's say that this circle represents all the knowledge in the entire universe, and let's assume that you have an incredible 1% of all that knowledge. Is it possible, that in the knowledge you haven't yet come across, there is ample evidence to prove that God does indeed exist?" Oh, so we should believe in God because there may be evidence that we are unaware of. According to this insane illogic, not only would we have to believe in God, but every single thing that we can possibly conceive of. I wonder if Ray believes in fairies, as well. Further on, Ray has this to say about the problem of evil: “Perhaps you have questions that hold you back from faith. First, almost every question you have about suffering humanity etc., can be adequately answered.” Can they, adequately? Well, why didn’t you? I’m willing to bet his answers would include the following stupidities:
Adequate answers within the framework of religious claims about God? I think not. Here are the real reasons for human suffering:
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| Hi aj,
I went and checked out Mr. Comfort's web site (thanks again Atheist Jew). Never before have I seen such a collection of eclectic crap, it was fantasitic...:) Bear in mind that I write this from the perspective of having been brought up a protestant (Anglican), dabbled in catholisism and ended up a born again god botherer in the AOG, baptised in the spirit and everything. That lasted right up until one day when the ham fists of hypocracy took me gently by the shoulders and shook shit out of me until I woke up to myself. So, I can safely say that I know the bible as well as anybody (yep, I still keep the study bible handy for debunking those pesky jehovas and mormons) and have argued it's content with some of the best. One of the things I've always been taught, and it was common to all the above mentioned faiths, was that things like astrology are occultist and are serious "tools of the devil!" Real fire and brimstone stuff. Well, from what I could tell, the guys at Ray's are good, serious god botherers, so being the smartass I am, I thought I'd leave a short comment concerning bananas and evolution. You can imagine my surprise when I hit the button to send it and was rewarded with a link to Ray's horroscopes. Yep, if I wanted, I could have gotten good ol' Ray to send me my daily horroscope. Oh how I laughed. Of course, it prompted a whole new comment. I even managed to find a link there so I could get my daily tarot reading as well. Thank god for that, I'd have been lost without it! I found this not long after I read his stuff about how the Koran says that Jesus is the son of god and that they should all convert. I thought it was interesting though. His site seems to cater to the spirituality of everyone, including pagans and occultists without prejudice, yet muslims should convert. What the? Obviously, this is not a person who should be taken seriously at all. | |||
| Posted by plonka | |||
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| Hi Plonka,
Great, once again, to receive your comments. I didn't grow up in a religious environment so am always interested in hearing about how people come to the realisation that it's a load of BS. Did it happen over a long period of time? Did you discover science and were unable to reconcile it with the dogmatic teachings of the church? Yes, those Mormons and Jehovahs can be fun, can't they? My most memorable experience with them was when some guy turned up at my house with a periodic table of the elements. He was so excited and happy to inform me that these were the building blocks that God used to create the world and us. I had to laugh at this, and attempted to explain that when the universe began, there were only three of those elements in existence. The rest are formed by nuclear fusion in stars; the Earth from the remnants of a supernova. He was obviously completely unaware of this so changed tact: "look, they've found evidence of Noah's Ark on Mt. Ararat." Nope, sorry buddy; that was all a hoax. Got any more 'evidence' for me? He gave me a booklet and said he'd come back later. Alas, he never returned. "...astrology are occultist and are serious "tools of the devil!"" Yes, this is a particularly insidious method for protecting believers from valid (and invalid) criticisms. They teach that if any unbeliever tries to persuade you with reasonable sounding arguments, then they are the instruments of Satan. Pretty hard to argue with people who have been warned to expect the Devil to appear reasonable. They seem to have everything covered into a little closed loop of non-thinking and communal validation. The horoscope thing is hilarious. I wonder if they are aware of it, or if it's just an accidental advertising blunder. Let me know if you get a response from them. That Muslim conversion argument is really stupid (seems par for the course with this guy). Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, and our religion says that only Jesus will get you into magic-fun-happy place in the sky, so why not convert? He phrases it like Pascal's wager: 'You might as well. Go on, it's not gonna cost you anything.' What a dick. | |||
| Posted by Adam | |||
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| Adam (I'm Ted BTW),
It was more like a slap in the face on a very cold morning, by someone with a wet hand. Science really had nothing to do with it because even at that time I understood that the creation story was a myth invented to explain the unexplainable. Mostly it was hypocracy that did the trick and it was a fairly rapid decline. Firstly, to be a "good" christian, you should live like Jesus. Yeah right! I smoke, I drink, deal with it. All your "peers" in church however, will be very happy to teach you all about what you need to do to be like Jesus, and will be happy to look down their nose at you when you get it wrong, but look a little closer. Despite outward appearance to the contrary, you'll see that they can't do it either, simply because it's impossible for the average person. You'll see my attitude toward tithing in a follow up comment on your other post, but there's another thing I had trouble with. What help? The best you get is a referal to a government service. You might get in a little quicker, but it's still your taxes at work there, not your tithe... Ever read the new testament? Paul (Acts, Romans and Corinthians were all written by him) is a doozy. "Do to others as you yourself would like to be treated.. OI! Cover your hair you heathan woman!" Well, that's what's between the lines, but never before has there been a chauvanist like him. He's actually responsible for nearly 1700 years of subjagation of women in western society you know. Before Christian Rome (Constantine - 306ad), women voted and held seats in the senate. I like science, I like history and I like history as a science. In short, I think. I'd been trying to get the above answered with something other than a "have faith" but hadn't had much success. Then one Sunday we had a guest preacher to do the sermon. She told us, and I remember her words clearly, they rang like a bell for me as they will for you, I'm sure: "Don't read news papers, watch the news on tele or listen to the news on the radio. If something important happens don't worry, you'll hear about it." That was when I started to worry. Within about three weeks I'd stopped all "christian" activities. So there you go. Hypocracy in about as pure a form as you could hope to find. They did alright though. As I said in the other post, Hillside is what that branch of the AOG became. Now you can buy a franchise...:) | |||
| Posted by plonka | |||
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| Hey Ted,
Thanks for your additional comments; most interesting. "Ever read the new testament?" I've read parts of it, and parts of the old as well. It seems to me that the entire bible is a cover to cover manifesto for sexism. And yes, Christianity does seem to shoulder much of the blame for sexual inequality throughout the centuries. I'll have a look at what Paul has to say over the next day or two. That guest's sermon was pretty despicable. I can see how it would push you away. It sounds disturbingly similar to the tactics employed by those loony cults you hear about from time to time. Cut people off from the outside world, and soon you can control their minds completely. | |||
| Posted by Adam | |||
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| Hi Plonka,
I thought the summation of your life journey so far was fascinating and brave. I think if people were to honestly express their experiences the world would be better off. Just one thing. You seemed to think Christians exploited women on the Roman era whom you suggested were well off. I'm not sure that's right. To my knowledge, In Roman law, a woman was completely dependent on her male relatives. If married she and her property passed into the power of her husband; if unmarried she was (unless a vestal virgin) under the perpetual tutelage of her father during his life, and after his death control passed to her nearest blood relations. If there were no close blood relations, the extended family would be responsible for her upkeep. The wife was the purchased property of her husband, and, like a slave, acquired only for his benefit. A woman could not exercise any civil or public office. . She could not be a witness, surety, tutor, or curator; she could not adopt or be adopted, or make a will or contract. She could not succeed ab intestato as an agnate, if further removed than a sister. A daughter might be disinherited by a general clause; a son had to be disinheirted by name. Furthermore, Women cannot obtain Roman Citizenship, which provides exemption from scourging, crufixion and right to appeal before Caesar. In addition to the certain legal immunity from jurisdictions outside Rome. In its early years, Christianity fought against harsh Roman laws under which women were considered non-citizens with few legal rights. The early Christian message demanded men and women were equal under God's law. But I'd have to acknoledge thatb many in the church eventually lost the plot on that one. | |||
| Posted by BryanP | |||
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| BryanP,
Thanks for your comments and support. I'd like to know where you read or heard that Roman women weren't allowed citizenship? There is absolutley NO surviving documentation to support that assertion, anywhere. In "As The Romans Did" by Jo-Ann Shelton we learn how the Romans "took the remarkable action of granting Roman citizenship to every free person within the borders of the Roman Empire." At no time and in no place, as I said, has there been any evidence uncovered that women were excluded. You are correct that there were laws, same as ancient Greece, excluding women from politics but despite that, we find graffiti in first century Pompeii: "Nymphodotus, along with Caprasia, asks you to vote for Marcus Cerrinus Vatia for the aedileship" which provides that women were defiantley able to take an active role. It appears that if women did speak up or vote, it was only frowned upon and there was no real penalty, so they did. It's also true that during the war with Hannibal, the Oppian Laws were passed. These prohibited women from spending "any amount of money" on jewlery or luxuries. Women went along with it because they felt the war needed the effort. 20 years later however, as Livy tells us in his "A History Of Rome", women packed the forum and forced the senate to vote on repealing the laws. Even opponants to the repeal like Marcus Porcius Cato, who wonered: "what kind of behaviour is this, running around in public and blocking streets and talking to other women's husbands? ... it is not right, even in your own homes for you to concern yourselves about which laws are passed or repealed here." made no difference, and the laws were repealed, and it's recorded as a victory for women. Livy, as both Pliny the elder and younger do, speaks of women as Romans, the same as they do men. Unfortunatley the citizenship issue is not discussed anywhere. If you're referring to dowries when you say "purchased property", then you need to go back a lot further and examine the social reason for it and it's really very simple. A father wanted to be sure his daughter's prospective husband could support her. A dowry is a simple indicator of this that is still used in many cultures today. Purchase has nothing to do with it! So, from evidence uncovered, it seems a wife was NOT a slave, and she was NOT purchased property, she was a Roman. If a slave didn't do what he/she was told the owner had the right to kill him/her. Killing your wife was a very different matter, unless there was proof of adultery. Especially if you'd married for a political or economic alliance, and most marriges in those days were one or the other. It would more often than not mean your own death. And I'm sorry, but your assertion about women not being allowed to be a tutor is simply laughable. It fell to women to educate their children in Roman culture, child bearing and education being their main roles. Once grown up, women were expected to spend THEIR OWN money helping their boys advance their education and careers. Where did they get this money from if they weren't allowed to earn it? It was also their role to teach their daughters well because their daughters would have to educate their own children. Then there's Cicero's wife, Terentia, who had personal wealth and made land investments on her own. How? I could bang on about this for hours... Of course, once we get to the "christian" emperors however, starting as I said with Constantine in 306ad, Paul's influence begins to manifest itself and things start to change. For the worse I believe. | |||
| Posted by plonka | |||
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| Adam,
"Cut people off from the outside world, and soon you can control their minds completely." My sentiments exactly... | |||
| Posted by plonka | |||
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| Bryan,
I must apologise. I just re-read what I'd written it it sounds rather harsh. I caertainly didn;t intend it to... | |||
| Posted by Ted | |||
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| Hey Ted,
<br> <br>No need to apologise mate. It\'s all good debate on important things. <br>Blessings <br> <br>BP | |||
| Posted by BryanP | |||
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| Bryan,
I just read a bit I'd totally ignored in one of your comments. No, I don't think "Christians" have treated women badly, per se. I think that western society as a whole has treated women badly via a misguided (at least in that area) Christian influence. Don't get me wrong though, Christian influences by no means have a monopoly in that area. | |||
| Posted by plonka | |||
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| from "The Origin of Species" chapter six, "Organs of extreme perfection and complication":
"To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound." [1859] | |||
| Posted by Conn_in_Brooklyn | |||
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| You'll see when you die that God is real, and the bible told you the only way to be saved through Jesus but because of your pride and sin you ignored it and if you die without Jesus you will end up in hell. Jesus said that 'every knee will bow and every tongue confess that he is LORD.' Without him this life is worthless and you have no reason to even be here. What will it profit you to gain the entire world but lose your soul? Think about it.... and pray... ask Jesus to reveal to you this truth and read the bible. | |||
| Posted by Anonymous | |||
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| Hello ignorant retard,
"...the bible told you the only way to be saved through Jesus..." It sure does, and the Quran says the only way to heaven is to believe Mohammad's bullshit. I'm seriously torn here. How do I choose between two fucking ridiculous, nonsensical belief systems? You know, considering both systems are devoid of evidence, utterly contrary to all such collected, illogical, and laughably ridiculous. I don't believe in your magic man in the sky, nor his fuckwit fraud of a son. As to your assertion that I'll end up in hell, don't you think it's a tad strange that I'm not even remotely concerned by the prospect? I'd bet my life on the fact that your God doesn't exist right now. Sure, I might be wrong, but I consider that eventuality's probability to be infinitesimally tiny. My certainties spring from logic, evidence and a related comprehensive system called science. Your certainty originates from fucking appalling ignorance. "Without him this life is worthless..." I don't consider this life to be worthless. You obviously do though, since Jesus is a 2000 year old fraud (adding his name to a legion of similar exploiters of the gullible and ignorant). Hence, you are are "without him" and should kill yourself at your earliest possible convenience. "...and you have no reason to even be here." So why did the magic sky fairy put me here then? Fuck off. You disgust me beyond measure. | |||
| Posted by Adam | |||
| Entry 12 of 42 |
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