| ||
| A vain attempt at decrazification. |
Learning Centres
Blogs that Rule
Pack Genius
Pack Genius
Clever Oneness
Archives
| ||
Group 1: Guinea pigs were told they would be prayed for. Group 2: Guinea pigs were told they may be prayed for, and were. Group 3: Guinea pigs were told they may be prayed for, and were not. Strangely, Group 1 displayed the highest percentage of complications after surgery. Obviously this doesn’t mean that prayer has negative effects as it's most likely just a statistical blip. Of course, being told that so many people are asking the creator of the entire universe to help you might have produced some anxiety. Groups 2 and 3 had about the same results. So, what do these results mean? Not much, apart from the fact that another 2.4 million dollars was wasted on another pointless study. Does it prove that god doesn’t exist? Oh, if only. Unfortunately, that is impossible (Note to theists: don’t take too much heart from this; we can’t prove that the Tooth Fairy doesn’t exist either). All we can say is that via the preponderance of the evidence, the probability is infinitesimally small that such a being exists. I think the theists who invest so much in these studies, both emotionally and financially, have forgotten their own bullshit apologetics. What about God’s plan? Do they think that magic dude is going to change his entire plan for the universe just because a bunch of people ask him to? What about the ‘Lord working in mysterious ways’ (or more accurately: the Lord, very mysteriously, does bog all)? Also, you’d think that an omniscient being would be able to tell when he’s being studied. Remember, God (in his infinite stupidity) doesn’t want to give us any evidence of his existence. It’s all about faith people; if you’re intelligent enough to ask for evidence, you’re going to hell. It’s little wonder there's no mention of intelligence in the Bible. Check out the Daily Show’s take on the study from One Good Move. It’s worth watching just to see Benny Hinn (Televangelist, Faith Healer, Batshit Insane Wingnut) waving his jacket at people, prompting them all to fall over (it's the power of the Lord, obviously. Praise Jesus). Hilarious. | ||
| Post Comment |
| |||
| I
I think you're right about God actingin mysterious ways. Looking for thedeity in the data is always fraughtwith difficulty. The study, if itshowed anything, revealed that God'swill is not always our will. And Amento that. I mean, the premise was Ithink that if people did not have asuccessful operation then God eitherdidn't listen, didnt act or didn'tcare. Or didn't exist. I prayed hardfor a friend with cancer and he diedlast year. i don't think that means myprayers for his well being wereignored. He died in peace, trusting inan afterlife. I think God did answerthe prayers, although not in theway I'dat first expected. I mean, you cvan'tsecond guess God. And it's not allabout physical healing. Some things aremore important...the state of the soul,the peace etc. In Christian doctrineGod hears our prayers and answers them if it is good for us in a way that is best for us. MostChristians know that. Perhaps thissounds like a cop out. But Noscientific study is likely to stoppeople from praying for those who areill, or stop the sick from offering upprayers for their own good health. | |||
| Posted by BryanP | |||
| |||
| Hi Bryan,
Thanks for dropping by. As I’ve said to you in our private communications, dissenting opinions are very welcome here. A few points on some of the things you said: “Looking for the deity in the data is always fraught with difficulty.” Obviously we will disagree on this, but I would maintain that this difficulty arises because God does not exist. Any phenomenon that has an observable effect on the universe can be measured. Given all the evidence we have collected in the universe thus far, it is pretty safe to say that no God has any effect on the universe. The only external phenomenon we know of in science that does not produce any measurable effect is nothing. Does this mean that God definitely does not exist? No, God can still exist as an observer, but it does render his existence irrelevant in my view. “I mean, the premise was I think that if people did not have a successful operation then God either didn't listen, didn’t act or didn't care. Or didn't exist.” This isn’t entirely accurate. The study attempted to prove the positive assertion that prayer has a healing effect. A strong positive result would have given us some reason to believe that a God may exist, although this would not constitute conclusive evidence. Paranormal nuts would say the healing was the result of telepathy/mind power. Other nuts would claim it was chi energy being directed unconsciously by the prayers etc etc. We would need direct evidence of the mechanism in order to attribute it to God. As I said in the post, this negative result proves very little. All it gives us is another tiny portion of ammunition for atheists’ (already very strong) arguments for the non-existence of God. What I mean by a ‘strong positive result’ is that there would have to be a very large improvement in the prayed for groups over the group that was not prayed for; not merely a few percentage points. Further studies would then be required to ensure that the result is repeatable by other scientists. This is standard scientific protocol and results that cannot be repeated are discounted. This is where most of the paranormal investigators fail, usually because their data are the result of deeply flawed methodology and experimental design (or outright fraud in many cases). “I prayed hard for a friend with cancer and he died last year.” My commiserations for the loss of your friend. I sincerely hope your faith brought you some comfort during such a difficult period. As you’ll hear from most atheists/humanists: ‘If religion works for you, that’s great.’ The problems arise when religious people try to force their beliefs on others, or use their beliefs as a rationale for legislation (abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia), or use their beliefs as an excuse for bigotry (homosexuality, sexism, racism/slavery), or use their beliefs to rationalise violence (most of the wars in human history, terrorism, murder of abortion doctors), or cite those beliefs in an attempt to subvert the advancement of science (stem cells, evolution, the big bang), or when political parties flaunt those beliefs in order to get ignorant morons elected (George W. Bush). “But no scientific study is likely to stop people from praying for those who are ill, or stop the sick from offering up prayers for their own good health.” That is certainly true. Faith does not require evidence, so I would not have expected it to. In my view, prayer is merely an act inspired by wishful thinking however. On a side note, I strongly disagree with the closing remark of your Herald Sun column today (Look inside for beauty and failings. 9/4): “Without faith we are just counting down the days until death.” The ‘Life is meaningless without God’ argument is a very common (and very arrogant) argument amongst theists. The meaning of a person’s life is up to the individual to decide. Please read this post at the Two Percent Company which goes over some of the reasons why this is a misguided notion: http://www.twopercentco.com/rants/archives/2005/04/an_ongoing_conv.html (Unfortunately, this host doesn’t allow links in the comments, so you’ll have to copy and paste into your browser): As I said earlier, it’s great to hear from you and I hope you continue to post your thoughts here. I have great respect for theists who are willing to debate with atheists. Many of the theists I know would run a mile rather than discuss their beliefs in the face of criticism. Edited by ajscanlan on Apr. 9, 2006 at 8:21 AM | |||
| Posted by Adam | |||
| |||
| Benny Hinn and other faith healers are about real as championship wrestlers. I lump them into the same category.
I ask xians over and over again if they were told they had only two hours to live they would be crying like babies. I have not seen an xian yet rejoice over hearing news that they have a terminal illness and will soon be meeting their maker. They cry, panic and run around to specialists looking for some MORTAL to help them live. They fall apart at funerals of fellow believers. They will say that they are only human and it is human weakness taking over...well, what good does your faith do you then if you don't really believe you are going to that great sky daddy in his "mansion of glory?" Why do xians seek help to prolong life on this planet Earth when they are so certain of going to be with Jeebus? None have answered this question yet out of dozens of xians I have asked this of. ~Stardust from GifS | |||
| Posted by Anonymous | |||
| |||
| Hey Stardust,
Thanks for commenting. Yep, Benny Hinn and company are a pack of bullshit artists, that's for damn sure. I used to find great amusement in their television shows (used as late night filler here in Aus) on returning from drunken nights on the town. Unfortunately, the hilarity only lasts about 15 minutes as it begins to sink in just how many people listen to these sick fucks. Your Christian query is an interesting one, and I've seen you post it on GIFS a number of times, with little in the way of reponse. Perhaps Bryan here can enlighten you. [BTW, the anonymous radio button is a text box, so you can put your details in there. It took me a while to realise this myself - it's a pretty average setup.] | |||
| Posted by ajscanlan | |||
| |||
|
Anonymous posted a question about why Christians seek help to prolong life on this planet Earth when they are so certain of going to another life after death. I think many Christians would feel that life on this planet is precious. Even if there is an eternity, this world is vitally important in the process of trying to become more ""Christlike''. We're not in a hurry to leave the planet. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, who organized some of the protestant churches to resist Nazi exclusion laws, joined the plot to assassinate Adolf Hitler and paid for it with his life. Bonhoeffer believed that the heart of what it meant to be a Christian was to act on behalf of the marginalized the helpless, the sick, the poor, the friendless. Alos devoted to the planet were. Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks; the abolitionists; the Christians of Jubilee 2000 who successfully pressured Britain and the United States to forgive the developing world's crippling debt; the Quakers who protect and advise pacifists; the women and men who work daily in soup kitchens, for living-wage ordinances, against torture at Guantanamo Bay. None of us have done enough, and that is partly why so many people only know about the Christianity that cozies up to power. I think with Christianity, you have a God who interacts with every single part of our being, even to the extent of wanting to walk this Earth with us. I know Christianity is more and more equated with closed-mindedness, triumphalism and, often, violent extremism. I just don't agree that's what it's really about. I don't think there 's much difference between all of us. We are all brothers and sisters, whatever we believe. For all of us, this world has much to offer. Does that go somewhere to answering your question in a Christian view? | |||
| Posted by BryanP | |||
| |||
| "Even if there is an eternity, this world is vitally important in the process of trying to become more ""Christlike''. We're not in a hurry to leave the planet."
I expected that answer. How convenient for you. It's a typical keep your head in the clouds and rear end in reality answer. But heaven is so much better, it's your sales pitch! Xians just don't want to admit even to themselves that it's like hoping to get to go to the Emerald City, "somewhere over the rainbow" and then clicking your heels together and saying "there's no place like reality, there's no place like reality!" | |||
| Posted by Anonymous | |||
| |||
| The last comment referring to the Emerald city, etc was posted by me, Stardust1954...
I have to login or sign in or something? | |||
| Posted by Anonymous | |||
| |||
| Hey Stardust,
As I said in my comment above, the anonymous button in the comment section is a text box, so you can put your details in there. The blog host has just done an update, and failed to upgrade the comment system (no ability to link to commenter's own site, confusion over anonymous post button etc). I'm going to write to them and ask them to fix it up. | |||
| Posted by Adam | |||
| |||
| I figured it out. Thanks Adam | |||
| Posted by stardust1954 | |||
| |||
| Hi Stardust,
<br> <br>I think you\'re misunderstanding the Heaven/Earth concept for Christians.. <br> <br>When ancient Jews said \'heaven\' they didn\'t mean a place far off up in the sky. They meant God\'s sphere of reality, the place where God lives... \'Heaven\' isn\'t a purely future entity. It is God\'s sphere, as \'earth\' is ours. And God\'s sphere and ours *intersect*. They overlap, they interlock, and sometimes they even merge . <br> <br>Am I getting closer to answering your question mate? <br>Cheers <br> <br>Bryan <br> <br> <br> | |||
| Posted by BryanP | |||
| |||
| Hey Bryan,
We're well aware of the current concept of heaven as external to this realm of reality; a place only reachable after death. However, the Tower of Babel story in Genesis (11) would seem to suggest otherwise. God appeared to be concerned that people could reach heaven via a tall tower. He then "confound(ed) their language" and "scatter(ed) them abroad" in order to ensure this would not come to pass. Obviously, this story is laughably ridiculous in a modern context; we have since been into space and learned that languages evolved over the millennia. Once again, the problem is that all such heaven/afterlife stories are not backed by a shred of evidence. Lacking evidence, how is one to decide between the conflicting stories of each ancient society? What makes you choose Christianity over Islam for instance, or Christianity over ancient Greek or Egyptian myths? I can't recall who coined this phrase, but it is apt: (roughly) "I contend that we are all atheists; I just believe in one fewer God than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible Gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." I think the point Stardust is trying to make is that religion's unique selling point is the afterlife/heaven. Such wishful thinking gives people something to assuage their fear of death. They don't have to face the painful truth; at some stage, you will cease to exist. However, he's saying that the supposed comfort it brings doesn't seem to help much. Perhaps the fear of hell only exaggerates the anxiety? I don't think Stardust expects Christians to happily embrace death. We would rightly see such behaviour as insane, but it is the logical conclusion to make, given the certainty some Christians profess in their God and heaven. You said in your earlier response: "I know Christianity is more and more equated with closed-mindedness, triumphalism and, often, violent extremism. I just don't agree that's what it's really about." I'm glad you view such Christian excesses in a negative light. However, from a fundamentalist viewpoint, given a literal, inerrent interpretation of the Bible, I would say that that is exactly what Christianity is about. The same goes for any fundamentalist interpretation of any religion, Islam being the most obvious current example. Close-mindedness is not a trait exclusive to fundamentalists, however. How many moderate Christians support gay marriage, for example? On a side note, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the Vatican's contraception policy I wrote about in the post following this one. I'm not sure what denomination you follow; are you a Catholic? Do you support such madness? | |||
| Posted by Adam | |||
| Entry 22 of 42 |
| Last Page | Next Page |