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Following on from the abortion pill vote, a couple of people of the female persuasion have expressed to me the following sentiments: 1. That men have no bloody business involving themselves in the reproductive rights of women, and 2. There should be more females in parliament.
It's pretty hard to disagree too much with the first point, but I'd make the point that women have no bloody business interfering with the reproductive rights of other women either. These should be personal decisions.
On the second point I also agree, provided that the women in question are intelligent and knowledgeable women. Take Danna Vale (a female Liberal backbencher) for instance, who's recent, somewhat racist comments prompted a bit of a shit storm. She said that she was voting no because us 'real' Aussies are aborting ourselves out of existance and Australia may be a Muslim country by 2050. People that fucking stupid should not be within 100 miles of a vote on legislation, regardless of gender, race, or indeed species. This is an excellent example of what happens when a religious person attempts to provide rational reasons for their position - they can't.
Okay, so imagine we have approximately a 50-50 split by sex in the hallowed halls of power and another abortion or 'conscience' vote pops up. Suppose we only allowed women to vote on this issue. Personally, I would still have just as much of a problem with women voting against it as I do with men. My reasoning for this is that the people against it are, in 99% of cases, against it because of their religious beliefs. A vote against, therefore, effectively forces their bullshit beliefs on the entire population. As I pointed out previously, this is seriously wrong. | ||
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| Adam - of course men have a right to involve themselves in the reproductive rights of women, afterall, if it wasn't for the man, she wouldn't be pregnent.
Also - not to sound sexist, (although I have no choice) - men are often the ones who provide for the children through life. It is a simple fact men have higher incomes than women and as such are responsible for the costs of raising the child. There is also the fact that many men are made to pay child support to the single mother, so either way, the man is often involved. As such deserves to have equal say about the birth of a child. Saying all this, I truly believe the decision should be that of the individual or couple involved - and religion and politics have no place in this discussion. | |||
| Posted by Mat Tischler | |||
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| Matty,
Obviously, men are involved in the process and share responsibility for the child. I think your points about financial considerations are irrelevant however. The final decision on abortion can only be made by the female in question as it is her body that carries the child. Whilst it would be great if a couple could discuss the situation and come to a mutual decision, what is to happen if there is disagreement? For example, the man wants to have the baby aborted but the woman does not. Would you say that your rights as the father are equal with those of the mother? Should you be able to force an abortion on her because you make more money than she does? The final decision can only be made by the female as it is her body, regardless of the male's protestations. I just don't see any way around that. Your final point was spot on though: 'Saying all this, I truly believe the decision should be that of the individual or couple involved - and religion and politics have no place in this discussion.' Thanks for being the first to post some comments. I hope you continue to do so. | |||
| Posted by ajscanlan | |||
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| Adam,
I see what you are saying, but surely if the man s the sole income earner in the relationship, and he feels his income is insufficient to support a third person, he should have the right to equal opinion. It is all fine that the women wants to have the child, however the future needs to be considered. Raising a child is not a cheap exercise, and no woman has the right to bring a child into the world that can not be raised properly, and at the very least be povided with the basics including medical and education. In this situation men will often think (actually in most situations) more logically and will often rationalise what is involved with having a child much more than a woman thanks to her maternal ways. If he is going to be the one responsible for providing for the child - then he deserves to have equal say on the matter. If the woman can afford to raise the child on her own - then leave the decision to her. However, if she intends to rely on the income of the male to raise the child in a respectable way - then the opinion of the man has as much worth as the woman. It is unfortuante that money becomes a key issue here, but it is reality. There are significant costs associated with a child and these need to be accounted for. It is unfair for a child to come into the world when the parents can not afford to provide for it. | |||
| Posted by Mat | |||
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| Matty,
An unplanned pregnancy would be an extremely difficult situation to be in. Obviously, the best course of action is to ensure it does not happen in the first place by making sure all contraceptive measures are in place. It might also be a good idea to talk about the possibility of this situation arising hypothetically (assuming a relationship), and discussing what each party thinks is the correct course of action. If your girlfriend’s a Pro-Lifer, you might want to think about doubling up on the countermeasures (or just hug instead from now on). Pro-Lifers are notoriously difficult to dissuade, as their abortion views tend to stem from other fairy tales they strongly believe, like that gods exist. Given that a pregnancy has already occurred though, and she wants it and you don’t, I’m afraid you’re up shit creek, big time. A few points on the comments you made: “…..he should have the right to equal opinion.” Yes, of course you have the right to an equal opinion, but that right cannot extend to the right to force an abortion on someone against their will. Surely you agree with this? The arguments you have made here should be used in an attempt to persuade your girlfriend to have an abortion. All you can do is put your case forward. The final decision is hers. “Raising a child is not a cheap exercise, and no woman has the right to bring a child into the world that can not be raised properly,” At the current time, every woman has that right, and most of the people born on this planet are a direct result of that right being exercised. This is dependant on your definition of ‘raised properly’ of course. If only the rich were allowed to breed, we wouldn’t be seeing too many babies. Also, I agree it would be great if people took such factors into consideration, perhaps the world wouldn’t be so absurdly overpopulated. There are many other factors that come into play on the population issue, however, such as education, poverty, culture, religion etc. “and at the very least be provided with the basics including medical and education.” Basic medical care and education are provided by the government. If you had said good medical care and education, it might be a different story. Private health cover and education are stunningly expensive. “In this situation men will often think (actually in most situations) more logically and will often rationalise what is involved with having a child much more than a woman thanks to her maternal ways.” Sexism alarm bells are going off all over the place with this one mate. This is a huge generalization that may be true in many instances, but you need to apply that to a specific case, let’s say yours. If your girlfriend happens to be an airhead who makes decisions solely on emotion and couldn’t spot logic and rationality in a line up, then I’d wonder what you’re doing with her in the first place. “If the woman can afford to raise the child on her own - then leave the decision to her.” The decision is hers, regardless of financial considerations. Remember buddy – You spray, you pay. You spray to make it, you pay to raise it. Poetic, that. ”It is unfortunate that money becomes a key issue here, but it is reality.” Most people wouldn’t know what reality is if it beat them to death with a stick. People’s world views are distorted by all sorts of crazy bullshit, like money, religions and vacuous cultures. Financial considerations are relevant to a discussion of whether or not to have a child, and you're right, it's bloody expensive. Once the girl is pregnant though, and determined to have the child, the point is moot. Unless you can convince (not force) her to have an abortion, it's game over. “It is unfair for a child to come into the world when the parents can not afford to provide for it.” Yes, it is rather unfair, but millions of children are born into gross poverty every year. There is no law of physics yet discovered that governs fairness in the universe. If there is such a law, the universe seems to be pretty mean when it comes to handing it out. Once again though, you make some good general points. It would be fantastic if more people adopted a more rational and responsible outlook towards the prospect of parenthood. Maybe we wouldn't have so many fucked up people about the place. That, however, is not the reality of the situation. People who should never, in a million years, even think about having children tend to have litters of the buggers. And the circle of dumb spins on...round...and around.... Sadly, our education system is so woefully inadequate that the wheel remains closed, and won't stop rolling. Edited by ajscanlan on Feb. 24, 2006 at 5:41 AM | |||
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| I think all has been said that can be said between us on this issue - however I am impressed with your poetry and also by the fact that you were so keen to respond that you did so at 5.30am Saturday morning. | |||
| Posted by Mat | |||
| Entry 35 of 42 |
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